00:00:00: I realised.

00:00:01: For a long time I turn my back on a huge part of myself are you the Gypsy part of myself probably because being a school and secondary school I felt these were in away going to be a hindrance to getting on in the world.

00:00:14: And I become second nature once I embraced my community of knowledge and my experience of my community.

00:00:22: Music.

00:00:32: Romatopia

00:00:36: Derbyshire elbro Patara town welcome to the very first episode of the podcast.

00:00:46: APR on a talk about it will talk to you for Europe my name is Isabella and I'm hosting this podcast together with William.

00:00:54: And a big welcome to everyone also from my

00:00:57: in This podcast we're going to talk to Rama from all over Europe and beyond about their lives about their experiences and about their utopian you want to present counter images and counter-narratives to stereotypes and Prejudice.

00:01:11: In the coming months will be talking to a number of noteworthy community members from a very cross section of the Romani people.

00:01:17: I'm really interested in hearing about what being Romani is to other people because we don't often get a chance to discuss such things

00:01:26: for those who do not know the remaining people's are Europe's largest minority and that includes in Roma gitanos romanys another group sprucely share common ancestry and have been present in Europe for well over 600 years

00:01:39: through linguistic theories we know that the originated in India travel through Peugeot and were present in the eastern Roman Empire for sometime before this person throughout the.

00:01:48: Their Economic and cultural contributions have historically been over.

00:01:52: Their history is an integral interwoven part of European history which also is often mistaken as one of eternal exclusion in heart.

00:02:00: No periods of extreme persecution did make their mark well before the 20th century and the genocide which we saw for during the Second World War.

00:02:07: After the Fall of the Iron Curtain in 1989 the Romani people's have gradually been making themselves more visible on the European sea.

00:02:14: Thank you bill for this brief journey through 11 history so we introduced the

00:02:20: people to old but now let's work our very first guess the artist uh-huh and Furious Daniel.

00:02:29: Hello Isabelle thank you for inviting me it's a pleasure to be here I Daniel.

00:02:34: Daniel be prepared a little game to start with we asked a friend of yours to describe you in one sentence I'm going to read this sentence to you and then you have to guess who said this

00:02:45: ready when I'm travelling throughout Wales I think of Daniel he's a kind hearted soul full of spirit and inspiration.

00:02:54: Any idea Wales in a big clue I think that might be Isaac Blake direct company

00:03:04: yeah good job indeed if Isaac Blake used tents and choreographer from Wales directory of the Romani cultural and Arts company maybe tell us a bit about those Trevor's through Waze.

00:03:16: Well yes I've known Isaac for

00:03:19: since about 2013 77 years to produce an exhibition for a gypsy Roma traveller History Month in the UK for 2014 so he has some funding from the Arts Council Wales and.

00:03:36: Basically commissioned an exhibition from me which I was very pleased to accept since then I've worked with Isaac on a number of occasions

00:03:43: around workshop some things like this for Travelodge it's remnants of the people in Wales and also known gypsy Roma traveller people in schools and in galleries and that kind of thing and

00:03:53: also been working on his gypsy make a project for the last few years acting as a mentor

00:04:02: adviser to the artists that are selected to take part in a programme again they offer

00:04:09: an amount of money to produce an exhibition which Isaac then tours throughout Wales so he's also friends so we had a good professional registered but have a good friendship as well grt.

00:04:22: Gypsy Roma and traveller is an umbrella term used in the UK to describe a number of different minority groups gypsies Romany urban indigenous to the UK since approximately the 16th century.

00:04:35: Migrated UK and recent decades and Irish travellers.

00:04:39: Weather in present for more than 1000 Years gypsies romanys as well as travelers have been mostly leading actor and lives until recently where as Roma have traditionally been said.

00:04:49: Gypsy is a commonly used term by the people themselves to describe themselves and is not necessarily the translation equivalent of the owner or Tegan which is necessarily

00:05:01: sometimes the words gypsy and traveller are used interchangeably which may be inaccurate butterflix common usage by the people who use these terms to describe themselves.

00:05:12: Lipstick with your biography of it can we ask you to describe yourself in one sentence

00:05:19: yes I will apart from the obvious things like I will go on to say that I'm good at coming up with ideas and I'm focused in carrying out those ideas so that's

00:05:31: how I see myself ready and ideas personal which can make those ideas re-add.

00:05:39: Sounds good let me just give a little bit of an introduction to our listeners basically Daniel Baker is an artist for curator and researcher

00:05:52: hold the PhD on the subject of Gypsy Aesthetics from the Royal College of Art London Daniel Baker curated the exhibition Futurama at the 58th international art exhibition at the Venice in 2019

00:06:05: he acted as exhibitor and advisor to the first and the second Roma Pavilions Paradise Lost and call The Witness

00:06:13: at the 52nd and 54th Venice biennale irrespective.

00:06:17: Is working be found in collections worldwide bigger worked as visual advisor for ROM archive digital archive of the Grandma and contributed to its dance x.

00:06:25: His former chair of the Gypsy council and Daniel Baker currently lives and works in London.

00:06:31: Is that correct there anything else you want to add to that no that sounds about right.

00:06:38: Ok great we did her homework but what is your most vivid memory of your child.

00:06:48: Will that's good question I suppose in terms of my

00:06:54: current occupation I'm very much aware and I'm influenced by memories of the

00:07:02: interior of my parents home by the time I was born my parents weren't travelling anymore they weren't living in caravans I was the last of

00:07:11: 6 children and so by that time they moved into housing provided by the local authority there was a large site.

00:07:20: But I lived on for a number of years which changed hands and then got developed so the council put them into social housing and I remember

00:07:29: the decor of my parents home being full

00:07:34: glass cabinets with ornamented crockery ceramic figurines mirrored backgrounds of his cabinets with reflected these got a precious objects from all sides so my name is already of these fascinating colour visual visually stimulating.

00:07:51: Displays within my parents home are you allowed to play with those objects or where there really safe and holy in these last cabin.

00:08:00: Well yes they were really Out of Reach so now we weren't allowed to play with them my father and my sister is actually used to make a lot of things so

00:08:11: my father would make flowers from wood so it carve a terminal what which would it was

00:08:17: the type of wood to make flowers many died them and also make paper flowers as well from Crepe paper and wire so my sister's I was a bit too young but not the things that we could kind of play with and having

00:08:36: what kind of

00:08:37: drawing on the things that when the Cabinets like often these things in the Cabinets had lots of ornamentation with flowers and birds and that kind of thing so we went explain the crockery but we could play with the things that my dad made you said that your parents move into a house from a site for time before you were born did they want to move into a house.

00:08:57: Weather forced to question you're full of good questions actually I'm not sure actually what the answer that is I think by the time

00:09:07: I have come along they have 6 children and they were relatively settled on this particular site it was called corks Meadow otherwise known as the pit because it was a chalkpit in in Kent Bakery and this was a huge

00:09:21: travocyte and they

00:09:24: live there for a long period of time so I think they were very settled in the area I imagine that when they were offered

00:09:33: housing by the council because there was no possibility of moving their caravans to another site in the same area

00:09:40: I imagine that they can have accepted willingly I think it probably took a while to adjust to living in a house rather living in a caravan or trailer but

00:09:50: they will lots of families they did the same thing so the street that they were moved into eventually television to prefabricated housing which is was very common after the war in in the in the UK and then there were no permanently build house.

00:10:04: See where I was born and I think having in a bedrooms and a bathroom and stuff was all quite new to them but I think it was probably welcomed I would imagine after having 6 kids kind of apron strings.

00:10:18: And how is it going to school in this area I guess so you you weren't the only Romany kid in school and I imagine practicing your brothers and sisters went to the same school how do you.

00:10:30: Well my next sibling to me is about 9 years older than me so much actually has got the same time but with the Gypsy families obviously in the area which went to the same school but it wouldn't really communicate with each other.

00:10:44: And I have thought about this actually a number of occasions and I think certainly in school

00:10:53: I'm quite well at school and I think I had only had the feeling that in order to participate in school and to make a go of it my gypsy as would not be welcome there so.

00:11:05: I definitely feel up there was a in hindsight I felt that as a young child

00:11:10: I think it was a young child you have a very kind of candy sense of how the world works and maybe that.

00:11:15: Not the case of the only felt that way that there were certain things that I couldn't couldn't do in order to kinda fit in if you like and by fixing him become.

00:11:25: Maybe what I wanted to be or be less conspicuous

00:11:28: so you didn't necessarily yourself experience and age discrimination at school but maybe you you seen other kids who did was that part of the reason why you did this or animal that did you did you see discrimination or feel it at all in any.

00:11:43: Yeah I might as well as call the GP but that didn't mean that I kind of made links with the other gypsies in the school I think I felt I don't know to be honest I mean that I think that would be the same colour solidarity there but

00:11:57: maybe I felt that would kind of compound.

00:12:01: Lionel what other people thought I'm not sure but you are definitely this discrimination and that in Away made me more kind of Brazilian and made me think well

00:12:12: you know I really have to try twice as hard to get anywhere near the teachers weren't.

00:12:18: Discriminatory I don't think but certainly some of the other people I mean children and children like different they'll go for the jugular but

00:12:27: yes although they will do many other gypsy children there

00:12:30: didn't feel like there was a gypsy community in the in the school I think that's partly because there was no facility within the school to accommodate this identity so there was no teaching about

00:12:40: gypsy history Roman history and it was before the road term was coined officially actually because that was coined in 1971

00:12:47: actually very near to where I was born in st. Mary Cray I was born in 61 so I was gonna go in.

00:12:53: Early school in the late 60s and early 70s so it was a difficult time and I think that.

00:13:02: We cope with these things the best way we can ROM is the word for a Romanian man.

00:13:11: Romney is the word for a reminder.

00:13:14: Roma is the plural form and an English sometimes it's used as an adjective is the plural of Romany remaining.

00:13:24: Romani is the adjective this refers to Roma.

00:13:29: It is the correct adjective to use in English as well no money cheap is the Romani language with a Romani.

00:13:36: - is often used to refer to the Romanian language but literally it means in the room.

00:13:42: Music.

00:13:49: Later in the 70s as a teenager and school was there what was it like

00:13:55: I guess it was a different time maybe this was also something that just didn't come up but I want to throw out the question anyway as a teenager cause

00:14:05: kids notice other things and they get their ideas and they go for the Jogger there was there an issue with you being gay at school and High School

00:14:14: yes definitely

00:14:16: and I think that's compounded with the Gypsy business you know that my kind of Gypsy identity so anyone went to secondary school I mean I pass an exam and I can go to a grammar school so it was a school that was populated in terms of the staff by ex-military so it was it was all quite strict it was all boys school

00:14:38: single sex school and I

00:14:42: was feeling very much kind of there was some things about me which I knew were going to be problematic in the secondary school situation for one thing being a gypsy for wanting being gay so that.

00:14:54: Really yeah it was tough because I was getting more

00:15:00: Castle about the gay thing and I never came out as gay to anyone but people assume that was gay and they were quite right I didn't disabuse them of that no sugar and I never played into a dialogue about it I kind of Lord I'm in there

00:15:13: many people that they pick on in terms of that kind of issue but I was never physically attacked or anything like that but the

00:15:22: name-calling was cut.

00:15:24: Petty and these things and not somebody find a way through and I think that experiences inform a lot of my future things I'm being with now in terms of my studio work and my

00:15:41: somebody my writing are rooted in my experience of of double Prejudice what would call now intersectionality I suppose and of a coming together of various

00:15:52: aspects of identity which other people might find issues with and the navigation of that is something which

00:16:01: I experienced on

00:16:03: a number of levels I mean when I was growing up I didn't tell my family I was gay so there was a whole idea of having to keep this piece of information about myself away from

00:16:13: all aspects of my kind of social interactivity where is the Gypsy thing obviously my family would gypsy so that was something I felt comfortable with

00:16:21: so if I strategies for dealing with these things on that really informed a lot of the

00:16:25: researcher I went on to do around my master's degree after my first degree in fine art I went on another of his later actually and kind of by accident I went on to.

00:16:38: A master's degree in

00:16:41: sociology under professor Thomas Acton who's it is a great man and he was very kind of nurturing it doing that period but my

00:16:50: work my research for that master degree focused donde gypsy identities because that was something that I felt really haven't been

00:16:58: I'm covered by any writings about Roman history leaving and a gay writings in the history of

00:17:06: the Quay history and nothing about gypsies in it the Roman history had nothing about gay people in it so.

00:17:12: When it came to kind of carry out my final dissertation for the master's degree I said to Thomas gypsies you said was nothing about that so have to be from scratch I said yes I have the contacts I can and I have my research

00:17:27: training from you I think I can do this and I did it and actually it's that was a very useful piece of research that I've done actually.

00:17:36: Sing something based on that now for a Polish journal so that piece of research that was done in 2000 has got a resonator.

00:17:45: Not only through and my whole career directory in terms of ideas of Visual representations and visuality and invisibility but also in terms

00:17:56: they kind of imaging lgbtq plus Roma identity.

00:18:02: I really pioneering piece of work there that it was much harder for you and those times and it is now because

00:18:08: there is now this LGBT IQ Roma community doing a lot of work and we have now researchers working on the topic and it's very interesting that you do turn.

00:18:20: Personal struggle into and discrimination your facing into a professional

00:18:26: work doing sociology and Romani studies later and then combining all these aspects my next question would originally be when did you decide to become an artist but I wanna form

00:18:38: the other way round what's the struggle of being kind of marginalized but I've seen as I don't know someone else not really part of the majority Society

00:18:49: did this in Croyde you to become an artist because.

00:18:53: The position of an artist in society is as well always kind of Bohemian position

00:18:59: well I think I was very good at drawing and and making things when I was a young age I was always.

00:19:09: Doing art base things really and I knew from a very young age that I wanted to pursue this as a as a Kind.

00:19:17: I suppose you have a rough idea what you want to be when you're very young and as soon as I could I went to Art School which made leaving secondary school early so I went to my degree and

00:19:31: I found that very fulfilling in a number of ways but never had an issue about finding a voice and that.

00:19:40: Is something that continued for a long time and doing my so so I did not finish my degree in.

00:19:47: 83 years so I'm doing that from 83 until I started my master's degree which was in maybe 1999

00:19:58: 1998 I have been making and.

00:20:03: Really doing that time trying to find a voice to which two kind of communicate in terms of my artwork at the time of my master's degree I was making

00:20:12: could be termed as process painting as that means kind of abstract paintings using things like poured paint basically letting the paint do it's job and basically marshalling that to create the kind of words you want to make it

00:20:25: it had residence within my sociology studies because that was about the behaviour of people's so my in my my

00:20:34: painting was about to behaviour of a physical substance i.e. paint so I can see parallels there and I did I did make a conceptual argument for those painting but once I started my PhD

00:20:45: with the encouragement of Thomas actor in the game I started to look at the history my personal history of my involvement with Gypsy visual culture which as I said the beginning with these

00:20:57: amazing

00:20:58: ornaments and cabinets to those around with as a child and I realise that once I entered into my PhD studies which suggest a year after

00:21:07: also about 5 years after I finished my realised.

00:21:11: For a long time I turn my back on a huge part of myself are you the Gypsy part of myself probably because being a school and secondary school I felt these were in a way

00:21:21: a hindrance to my getting on in the world so

00:21:25: and I become second nature so it was something it was I was aware of this part of me but it was almost as though there was a door closed on it so we're open that door.

00:21:35: Really the creative flow started to.

00:21:40: Be unstoppable so good lesson for me because I realise that when we can embrace all parts of ourselves then.

00:21:50: Things come together and things really start to flow if we're struggling with a part of yourself in my keeping that part of Us closed off it means there's not a free flow of kind of

00:22:00: energy and communication between the colour of the whole part of yourself so it wasn't until I started my pasty that I realised the power and

00:22:08: the possibilities that.

00:22:11: The visual culture and the community had and that's when things really started to take off in my work I think it changed completely before that I was making his very

00:22:21: breaking a dry interesting and I still have the

00:22:23: in my home on display because I think they are really interesting and they go with every kind of decor that I have but the contrast between those very hard Edge

00:22:33: sober minimalist works and the work that I'm making now couldn't be more different so.

00:22:40: It was almost a dose which was thrown and suddenly once I am braised my knowledge and my experience of my community I was then able to turn off light

00:22:51: that's interesting and then but very nice the formulated so you really had to look back to her.

00:22:58: Grow up to the tradition and in order to be able to to make a step into the future right exactly that's where we already now off in the beginning of our of our talk we have to explain.

00:23:12: Complete the other question we could come back to your heart I promise then you are an urban or countryside purse.

00:23:20: I think I'm an urban person a heart really the place I was born.

00:23:27: Is is part of Greater London when I was born now I think it wasn't London it was Kent it's still candid a bit confusing it's basically a victim or not a victim it's.

00:23:39: It is it's now a consequence of London expanding and expanding so what was Kent County Council.

00:23:46: Is now the London borough Bromley so it's kind of which is very very kind of appropriate is a kind of liminal area which is.

00:23:55: It's on the green belt

00:23:57: is the countryside resort of the city so it's this kind of mixture of the two and it feels very much the case cos from the the bedroom of my own where I was born you could see the farms in One Direction and on the other direction you can see the story of the city so it's very much kind of

00:24:15: I was born between the two and enjoyed kind of both but now I think I'm more of a country but no a city person

00:24:23: but I do have an allotment in the city which is where I grow.

00:24:26: Best wasn't things so that's that's a kind of a nod to the to the rule side of myself in a great job of introducing Hall

00:24:40: how and where you live but the

00:24:43: travelling of Warner maybe just make sure that our listeners understand what that means travelling you're not you're not living in a caravan right now on your point

00:24:53: that's right now I live in I live in an apartment in in London no in fact I've never loved dinner in a caravan my family moved into a house before I was born all my brothers and sisters were born in caravan I'm kind of the the exception to do that rule in our family but

00:25:11: no as Isabel says I I travel with my work not so much recently because of the restrictions.

00:25:19: Yes I I certainly enjoy enjoy seeing parts the world that I haven't seen before and my most recent trip

00:25:25: was to Florence sir to ristes the Future Roma exhibition there in

00:25:32: September another going back there a couple of weeks to take the showdown

00:25:36: and well considering that you do have to travel to places that are quite far away you you fly you go to the two different parts of Europe that was the pandemic affected you when your ability to work and your friend.

00:25:48: Well I haven't seen much of my family throughout the whole pandemic because.

00:25:54: Issues around your self isolating and stuff for some of those people so I can so I haven't haven't visited them of them once when things were he's up a bit but in terms of my work

00:26:07: and stuff because I work at home.

00:26:10: The lockdown restrictions didn't affect me that much because I wasn't having to commute to to a studio anything like that so I've been really.

00:26:20: Is getting on with some things that things I've been working on previously but finishing off things and sorry to new ideas it's been a bit of an opportunity to

00:26:28: experiment a bit more prayer and some ideas that I'd had that I hadn't had the time to to fully commit to so I think I'm very lucky in that

00:26:39: it doesn't matter now I've had to stop doing anything anything has stopped our exhibitions which of courses is difficult because those will either have to be completely cancelled or restaged certainly.

00:26:51: The Gypsy maker Project I've been working on with Isaac Blake.

00:26:55: We had 3 exhibitions scheduled for the spring only one of them could happen the others we managed to find other ways of presenting the work i.e. virtual galleries or other kinds of options

00:27:06: and we had a seminar kind of the scheduled was a game we had to carry out via zoom I think

00:27:11: exhibiting has been Tricky and it will continue to be tricky for a while because galleries

00:27:17: will be operating under certain restrictions as I said some of the projects that was due to show in and now postponed to next year but hopefully that

00:27:26: they will find ways of adapting and I'll be able to move forward with those kind of issues let's talk about your ad little bit deeper here but you do installation sculptures paintings

00:27:39: and as you already said the money viticulture is.

00:27:43: Main source of inspiration one could say you're fascinating by what you call to be aesthetic.

00:27:50: In your eyes you are mixing kind of the visual culture of drama with modernism and contemporary or conception.

00:27:57: Tired and always highlighting the role of the traditional within the contemporary being asked to describe your work in one cell

00:28:06: I make shiny things I love that answer and actually and viable answer to the question what one does tell us a bit shiny things.

00:28:17: The main source of my

00:28:19: is Brescia as we discussed gypsy material and visual culture and during my research at the Royal College of Art

00:28:28: I examined the number of objects basically cannot to distil and determine what the

00:28:35: key qualities were within his objects that made them kind of fascinating to me and also which which kind of located them very much within the Gypsy visual were.

00:28:45: The Gypsy visual world rather gypsy aesthetic is there something that you defined because I mean I know a little bit about your work but I don't know what a gypsy aesthetic is how could that describe because

00:28:59: something that universal across basically all different Roman people so if you could just say a little bit about that true because some people might find that might make a lot of assumptions.

00:29:09: Yeah well the Gypsy has been defined by me I kind of came up with the idea basically because.

00:29:17: During my studies I I couldn't find anything at all written about

00:29:22: gypsy visual culture stuff about dance about storytelling about

00:29:29: all other kinds of aspects of Gypsy culture nothing about the visual which to me seemed very strange because there's a very visual people so.

00:29:39: I decided that I was well positioned being equipped with research skills and also being a

00:29:47: the bigger artist I thought I could you and making it make an examination of this phenomena so I set about

00:29:55: writing a gypsy research and gypsy facility which is in effect gypsy Aesthetics determine the number of Key qualities.

00:30:07: Please can you send up quite easily I mean this is my opinion so this is my kind of taking things I think they are the other people may find in a residence within this but so

00:30:18: here we go the the kind of defining defining factors are I would say the icon of currency of display and concealment this idea of of showiness which is in effect

00:30:31: employed in order to to maintain privacy

00:30:34: and things like Shining is flashing us there very much coronavirus that can be can be seen in things like in a jewellery that gypsy people might wear lots of gold stuff the ways that

00:30:47: I described earlier my data of my family home which has lots of shiny things in glass cabinets with mirrors so lots of reflective surfaces lots of high ornamentation I kind of baroque sensibility.

00:31:00: They are very kind of things are describing as a kind of Gypsy aesthetic and although the visual manifestations of this would be

00:31:08: and things like my pattern juxtapositions of kind of clashing colours shiny surfaces mirrored surfaces

00:31:17: your gold and silver that kind of thing they are the physical manifestations when I would suggest that the mechanisms are occurring there are based around this process of.

00:31:28: Displaying in order to conceal and that I would say the protection mechanism at the reign of developed over many many hundreds of years in order to kind of maintain a distance from.

00:31:42: Prying eyes which you know

00:31:46: I trying to go to uncover what's going on within the kind of private gypsy world the Aesthetics it is manifesting qualities which are

00:31:56: this is a good example but it's about other things it's about mechanisms that have been learnt or developed through and positioning of marginalisation within Society.

00:32:07: Do you define this this gypsy Aesthetics 4

00:32:11: how many groups all over Europe or is your research focusing on on the UK will my research

00:32:17: has focused on the UK yes but I would say that partly because gypsy gypsy Roma and traveller in the UK have been more recently nomadic and I think that.

00:32:30: Is quite a significant Factor I mean in another parts of Central and Eastern Europe I because.

00:32:40: The actuator of nomadism has been left behind a long time ago there are certain of.

00:32:48: Aspects of the visual culture of those Communities which I have looked at in terms of now to painting in that kind of thing but I can still find similarities between

00:32:58: between those kinds of narrative works under the words that I'm describing in terms of decor and tools and implements and dress and that kind of thing that are happening in the UK I think the idea of art is very much more established within central and eastern European

00:33:16: culture.

00:33:17: In in northern European culture Audi even say in Spain and in France in England in in the whole of the UK and in Sweden.

00:33:26: I think that the idea of art is very much removed from out for our sense of the world so how are basically takes place within the home.

00:33:35: We don't we don't have green things and things that we we.

00:33:39: Offer the same kind of value for those things I think we we instill more value in things like you know The Cup that you drink

00:33:52: just think that's the the room.

00:33:56: All round to Mrs but in a way the the the qualities and the mechanisms I'm talking about or maybe from.

00:34:06: A bit later in the history of most remote communities in Europe

00:34:10: in Western Europe those qualities are still very much alive I think so I think it's a jet tree.

00:34:16: Think about it in terms of maybe evolution the evolution of the Roma people are the gypsy people in Western Europe I think is.

00:34:26: Is cholera a few steps behind national and negative thing I think it's a very interesting thing because we're still very much in touch with certain aspects of the the urgencies of nomadism whether a lot of more established.

00:34:40: On

00:34:41: maybe so so much in touch with that I think it's still there I think there's an essence of that and I think this idea of a nomadic sensibilities interesting because which I've also written about

00:34:50: because it's not about people moving around it's been passed down which is about these urgencies of you know a community.

00:35:01: Marginalising in Crisis so that I think that stays with

00:35:05: Roma people even though they're not still moving around I think that I mean I make that maybe contention to make a lot of flak about that but interesting conclusion then that's nice to hear it we're over here to talk to you about your opinion to so explain yourself quite well about what you studied what you come to and the conclusions you've come and how you work with them so that's what we want to hear too

00:35:25: it's very interesting mate I think I saw this idea of hired only one the one side and domestic are on the other side is really a Western European

00:35:35: idea isn't it and as far as I understood in the woman need visual culture this is very much interwoven with each other there's no such a big distinction between the two

00:35:44: yes I will say that and I think that I have written about this a bit I think that that kind of holding onto the idea of the domestic

00:35:53: within the contemporary is something which defines the emerging contemporary romarts in really that aspect of a drawing together from

00:36:04: those different registers and hierarchies a practice is very important and I think it it maintains a connection with.

00:36:12: The community will also assess the new things about the contemporary moment so I think that is.

00:36:20: Something which can be said that that is a defining factor of the the emerging contemporary

00:36:25: and maybe also another aspect regarding Rama vs reality is that I mean there was 4 long time there was the length of the written

00:36:35: written tradition ride it was more in an Oral traditions Armani tradition even though now be of course have many many fascinating very

00:36:45: read for money authors and riders is there's always this also reason that I might focusing on this visual aspects

00:36:53: absolutely yes I mean my parents didn't read alright and we didn't really have books in the home so.

00:37:02: This phenomenon of electricity is continue to be an important issue I think and certainly that has determined

00:37:10: the exuberance of.

00:37:12: Gypsy visual of the aroma of agility in not just in terms of in terms of display but also in terms of dance and you know song

00:37:22: oral traditions they're very heightened and I think because of this

00:37:27: absence of a written tradition and certainly the absence of written tradition reflects the absence of Gypsy from from Weston Histories from Eastern Histories in a notice trees in hallway so why should

00:37:41: you know why should we

00:37:42: got a tin in the written word of course they are all reasons all kinds of reasons why we should but being in a way not included is not

00:37:52: an incentive to actually take part so I think that obviously now that's changing and that's good but

00:37:59: one consequence of that absence of literacy has been a very vibrant and energetic and Powerful visual language wish

00:38:09: Roma Communities continue to

00:38:11: use are you saying that to questions on the one hand it's a kind of political choice aurora kind of resistance too well we're going to do it our way and why are you doing this or

00:38:25: or is it perhaps on that you're taking into consideration Romany gypsies as you are audience for your arts you want them to see this you want them are you who are you producing for is is.

00:38:37: I guess the question as interesting I think that you know illiteracy for long time was ability collected by gypsies because I remember when I was

00:38:46: lots my parents friends saying

00:38:50: make a model and 3 because they can trust the written word didn't trust people things about them and interesting I never before here yeah so I think that that's very important to remember

00:39:03: but certainly in terms of my work I'm making it for.

00:39:07: As many people as possible really I mean they're I'm always thinking about how this is going to be seen within the drama community and.

00:39:17: But also has can be seen with an orca news I think as an artist that something that's very important because the way you put things together and the way that you formulate and present your ideas

00:39:27: destiny down the way that can convey your ideas clearly and concisely as possible if that doesn't happen you're doing a job properly if you think I want someone to think about

00:39:38: a certain topic when you look at this.

00:39:40: Didn't happen then you need to find a way of making a happen and you do that by trying things out getting feedback seeing how this makes people feel singer how it makes you feel when you look at what you do.

00:39:52: So that takes time and skill to be able to define a language for yourself so I.

00:39:58: I hope that my work has multiple currency in terms of who can relate to it and what kind of level

00:40:05: do you have the feedback from from various rubber Communities from from Europe or from the UK in terms of how they reacted to the

00:40:14: yeah your aesthetic frameworking and how you present things yes I have had the feedback from the community

00:40:23: the example I can think of is in maybe 20 years ago

00:40:31: I was asked to show in exhibition down in Kent and one of the pieces that I showed was.

00:40:39: My first no travellers sign which is a it's a kind of highly ornamented.

00:40:45: Mirrored sign reflective kind of sign written in a calibre a lovely text it says no travel so this is an example of a static is very inviting to look at but it soon as you can

00:41:00: but it's written a very alluring manner

00:41:02: and I said this is an exhibition down in Kent of which number just came to and a couple of people said to me why did you put that there it's so I find that offensive is a gypsy talking I find that offensive

00:41:15: that's interesting what I'm trying to do with that piece of work is to basically display the inner way.

00:41:23: Convert racism still exists within Society although

00:41:27: the places where is no travellers signs used to occur in pubs and things like that they have him in the window basically sending money gypsies to come that's against the law now although it does still happen I was this this person was speaking to when I'm trying to do here is dressed

00:41:44: awful phrase up and a lovely kind of image to show that still happening but

00:41:49: it's not limited to this idea that this kind of racist sentiment is built into the architecture

00:41:55: of the community of the society is so problematic and when I look at that when I want when I when people look at that

00:42:03: is art I want to be disturbed by anything that's that's not a good thing to be kind of seeing

00:42:10: hopefully the way that is put together can bring some other aspects into the argument and show that one I'm trying to do is make something more complex and it was kind of thing and striking but has a medical amount of between within it

00:42:25: exhibition which again piece of that

00:42:29: still part of the things that I make along with the signs I showed these again they were mirrored objects with.

00:42:37: Aspects of wildlife paint on them things like flowers or birds but these were then graffitied with kind of crossings out and spray paints over the actual ornamented image and someone else asked me

00:42:52: why are done that because they said they'd realise to have that piece of work in their home

00:42:56: if it wasn't graffiti than messed up and I explain that what I was trying to do is it's going to look at the way that the Gypsies singing Society i.e. the demonised and romanticized and try and bring me to.

00:43:09: Ideas together in a kind of Visual form and try and find a dialogue between the two and I kind of Beauty and between the two and.

00:43:19: To me these work

00:43:21: do offer a kind of problematic account an account of the problematic situation is kind of very polarized ideas of the Gypsies but hopefully they cannot find a way of

00:43:32: untangle that literally kind of untangle that because the flowers and birds on their tied up with these kind of graffitied marks

00:43:40: I make them that so although they may be didn't tell them one to have it on in their home they can see what I was trying to do.

00:43:48: I think that what what I would say about that is people were able to see some aspects of their home life.

00:43:57: Represented within a gallery so if they're saying to me that the things.

00:44:02: Did I make if they were changed a bit like to have them at home that means they would fit into their idea of their home life that kind of affirmation experience of going to a gallery and seeing something that is.

00:44:14: Is part of this in your own life I think that's an interesting starting point and I think if I was making stuff that people won't be no home I think I wouldn't get very far as an artist because that's not my job is but I think.

00:44:29: People to think about things in relations of them and the complexities of their situation rather than just

00:44:35: being fed something which is a kind of a comfortable representation of what people think their lives are I think that's a good starting

00:44:45: yeah in the future Roma catalogue you put it that way the at work act as an extension of the artist a proxy if you will which in turn x extension of their community I think this makes it very clear this idea

00:45:01: yes yes that's

00:45:03: there's another one of those mirrored signs I really really like very much it's the one where you put on

00:45:12: read location Mark like the ones at Google Maps saying you are here I find this very very strong because it's weird about be claiming the space

00:45:22: occupation I like that one very much thank you thank you yes that was an interesting series to make.

00:45:32: That was commissioned by the

00:45:34: Roma cotton company in 2018 we had a retrospective of the Gypsy maker artist to work and we were each kind of commission to make a new piece of work for this group show and that is very interesting to me

00:45:48: because it's kinda hasn't a bit more residence now as well with the whole kind of thing because it was it was a tried to question or to open up ideas about

00:45:58: encountered is called the encounter series now 303 in the series and it's about the encounter the physical encounter so

00:46:06: what I was hoping to do with his works was in Gorey situation

00:46:11: people to think about location in terms of relating to an object rather than relating digitally so it's a colour coming on digital communication is very important particularly now because we can't meet but it was trying to define a difference

00:46:27: what was the difference between was trying to enlarge upon that difference between the physical encounter and a digital encounter so by using.

00:46:35: Motifs from a digital app like as you say this Google Google Maps pointers

00:46:41: I was taking that really kind of messy way I mean using paint and using gilding and using physical materials to represent this digital things doesn't really exist and also asked because reflected in the surface of the heart

00:46:56: 3 artworks it's about saying you know you're here and now and you're here with this object you're not

00:47:03: anywhere else that Google Maps might tell you you know you could possibly be it was about that encounter but I think you're right it has other residents is about

00:47:11: location and territories for Gypsies with supposed to be been denied for so long only now in terms of covid.

00:47:19: About the encounter being in a white taken away from us and having to.

00:47:26: Music.

00:47:32: Yes I have to talk about one of their artwork BA2 Estate serious because the one of those modus this the cover of over my popular podcast and have to think again that we can use

00:47:44: beautiful motive combined with other legs and in this case.

00:47:50: Who's the European flag which is combined with a one-off leg so you have the blue background the yellow stars and in the.

00:47:56: The word wheel the Romany flag.

00:48:03: At the first world Rama Congress which took place in London in 1971 the Roma flag as well as the runner anthem glmv

00:48:11: was introduced as a symbol for the international community is blue like the sky the lower green like the Earth.

00:48:20: And in the centre is a red spoked wheel a so-called chakra which refers to the Indian origin of the Rama however the flag is not used by all group.

00:48:30: Most sentimental living in Germany reject the flick because the wheels subject that Rama and Cynthia are still animatic peep.

00:48:38: Edward state serious what is about what was your idea.

00:48:47: Will this was made as part of an exhibition good makeshift in the subject of the equation was structures in mobility and at exhibition was about the structures that enhance and inhibit mobility so

00:49:01: I was using things like.

00:49:03: Ropes and wheels and Ladders and it's kind of like a snakes and ladders game with so as to make some ladders is about

00:49:12: you know moving forward with the father dies then moving back down you know down a snake

00:49:17: this idea of a rope for example being something you could tow a vehicle with to help mobility also you could put across a doorway to stop people coming in so quite simple ideas around

00:49:29: objects that enhance mobility and also

00:49:32: inhibitor and obviously that has issues around social mobility as well as the physical ability so if it's obviously the wrong with it because that's something that I'm very interested in this idea of of.

00:49:43: Ability yeah I think it's really important I just thought I really like that piece and for me I don't know if interpreting too much personally for me at those in the ocean getting the bloody the move across

00:49:57: all of Europe leaving work wherever you want however it's often Roma who get singled out and deported back to their home country for some reason against the law basically that's against the law to be doing that we have these issues.

00:50:11: That's right that's right

00:50:13: show the states of part of the makeshift exhibition and these are intended as a game with the idea of a boat in Minecraft with a mobility idea of

00:50:23: a kind of a motif on a symbol which would somehow encapsulate.

00:50:29: The idea of inclusion but also operate as a kind of marker of presents so what I mean by that is these flags resituated the wheel from the Roma flag into Coronation Street.

00:50:43: So basically acting as

00:50:44: an icon of resistance basically saying these Communities exist within these territories for hundreds of years but also as a can of a symbol of harmony so they have a very message but I think

00:50:58: the visual experience of them

00:51:00: is very kind of tight and it's very kind of obvious and very clear so I'm very pleased with those designs with you because what I try to do with each one I made for that term 814

00:51:14: the Welsh Dragon also with the UK flag and each design was different size wheel into each

00:51:23: tried I thought about how the world would best harmonise with the with the existing design of the flag and.

00:51:30: That was a very interesting experience to me because it made me appreciate the existing flags more are you the Welsh flag and the UK flag and me

00:51:39: but also many think about how those flowers can be adapted and in that meeting about how those Nations can be kind of change so that was very interesting I've recently made 14.

00:51:50: A couple years after that

00:51:52: I was invited to a show at the center for Contemporary Art in Glasgow and it was that exhibition was part of a queer people of colour film festival called glitch and organizers wanted a person of colour.

00:52:07: To exhibit and see my work in Venice before and invited me to do this so I decided to make a new altered States flag using the rainbow flag and the wheel again and

00:52:20: that's been interesting to me because I've had lots of request to use the flag for four marches and in terms of the publications and so this is a good example for me of an artwork that becomes a very viable

00:52:34: social tool I have the postcode of it on top of my bookshelf at work to which you have a special or very close

00:52:45: I would say my first no Travis I was a real Turning Point I made the.

00:52:51: Piece for an exhibition that I was invited to put on by a friend of mine called Paul Ryan another artist and

00:53:01: was managing a space in a rural countryside and invite me to make an exhibition about space and the show was called no travellers based on this piece of work and that's why I started making my period for me really

00:53:18: and the exhibition.

00:53:21: Opening no one came so that was quite bowling in some ways it was interesting for me to see how this.

00:53:30: At work on the type of the exhibition was a real deterrent for people to come to the show and that in a way made me realise that I was onto something if

00:53:42: if these artworks or the potential idea these artworks was going to have such a strong effect then I was moving in the right direction.

00:53:50: Music.

00:53:56: Come back to electro performance you did in 2013 together with Ethel Brooks actually also gast of all podcast.

00:54:05: You started your lecturer performance which was called a rama model V Crystal Palace another with card reader.

00:54:13: I'm reading and you brought those practices on stage with

00:54:17: I read as an active acknowledgement and at the same time to play with stereotypes and I know that you've been strongly criticised from within the community that you put those stereotypes.

00:54:30: Let's talk about those stereotypes and about strategies how to overcome their performance was tricky because before

00:54:39: I don't really engage that much on social media but defo told me that we had lots of negative feedback on social media about the prospect of this talk and I think you'll find that.

00:54:52: If not all of the negative feedback was before the talk actually happened so people are reacting to what they thought they were going to see

00:54:58: what they say what they saw was something quite different I think I come sure about that so the idea was to present these iconic activities.

00:55:08: From Rome history from Roman culture from as a way of thinking about discrimination so.

00:55:16: Basically mean if I gave her a card reading a tarot card reading to a purse

00:55:21: it was a private reading all that good Casillas they couldn't hear what he was saying so I did a card reading for this I do card readings myself I kind of it something I do not for money but I'm going to do it so I did.

00:55:35: An

00:55:36: it was about 5 minutes and a palm reading I don't know what I'm eating but it doesn't really matter because it was about reproducing iconic transactional act sage as an example of how

00:55:51: people often bro discriminatory about.

00:55:55: Roma issues no matter what they're asking about just because of the way that they presented so what I mean by that we were looking at the ideas of divination of speculation of for which of course is basically what.

00:56:10: Any kind of a fortune telling is in a card reading or palm reading is about projecting into the future telling people what might happen and.

00:56:18: When it's about gypsies if Damned it's he knows criminal it is misleading when it's politicians when it's financial forecasters

00:56:26: when it's weather forecast is fine will listen will take what you say about me you know we weren't Condemned you for it

00:56:34: what is a prejudice I think that just came up with those people that were condemning the

00:56:40: is it going to be a good point yeah yeah I was also thinking before the way it was described I'm not sure what this is going to be here but then afterwards of course so relieved and entertained and very happy with what happened there

00:56:52: but I am a question to that too I was just wondering the cosmopolitan other is that really a code word in British collect Society for Jewish I was wondering was that just that just dance or was that have anything to do with

00:57:06: the decision ok and

00:57:10: I'm not sure to be honest because that the cousin for another was kind of added on because my area was the aroma model that kind of my team and my theory which show my ring a bit about about that in the book I did with Marie fly over after the second run at the video we produced a book called we roam.

00:57:29: A critical reader in Contemporary Arts which is still available and has a conversation between myself and Maria flavour yoghurt the beginning of that I talked about this I give the role model that I've been formulating at the time and the other I think that

00:57:42: tying in with some other ideas that are floating around the the actual event which was a conference for

00:57:51: former West project that Maria however been organising and which took place at the house to court or in the veldt in Berlin and that's where the performance with me and took place so I think.

00:58:04: Was Canada involved with some other ideas that was at work and formulated throughout the whole of the program so I can't really answer your question on

00:58:11: no thanks that are interesting question that come Back to the Future Roma exhibition in Inverness

00:58:19: this exhibition I think the Futurama the title refers to afrofuturism afrofuturism reimagines the past and visions

00:58:29: what can be that fact follows fiction and the future will be the realm of Heathrow what is the idea.

00:58:38: Well the exhibition draws together a number of things I've been interested for a long time really and these are basically around hierarchies a practice and.

00:58:50: Dissemination and also collecting so what I

00:58:54: was interested in here is to look at things like links between domestic and professional artistic practice which is what we talk about a bit before between individual archives and state collections and is it

00:59:07: those different positions kind of interact so the exhibition has.

00:59:14: Examples of various types of work domesticated the practice and professional.

00:59:20: Contemporary art practice and also it has works from national Museums from private archives from the artist and collection so this

00:59:30: project was option to the metre Britain's got a lot of things that have been preoccupied me for a while and.

00:59:36: I had been area to European room is to pass and Culture they put out a call for proposals for the

00:59:44: Venice biennale in 2019 for a Roma exhibition there and I started about how I could formulate these ideas into something for that and

00:59:55: I had been looking at the idea of African futurism in writing something else and this was.

01:00:03: A framework that could be inhabited by.

01:00:07: Roma groups in order to Canada think about our situation and how.

01:00:14: We might navigate navigate our way can I forward so.

01:00:19: The exhibition itself the concert draws upon certain aspects afrofuture kind of embrace the whole kind of sci-fi thing but that's not watch applications about anyway I understand that but the Dara.

01:00:34: Is Gulliver gentle drawing a pond at positioning in order to

01:00:39: think about the current situation for Gypsies really so it enables me to choose a number of archers and I've been looking out for a while and combined in a particular way to think about

01:00:52: a new way of presenting.

01:00:57: The Gypsy subjectivity really account and narrative somehow.

01:01:05: Exactly as so something which didn't.

01:01:10: Well too heavily upon the atrocities that have been afforded to us in the past something which is very important obviously and a lot of other people are dealing with

01:01:22: but I think that I didn't want to tell upon that too much in this particular exhibition there are references to that office in the works but these are kind of.

01:01:32: Set alongside other possibilities for healing and moving forward within the same space so what.

01:01:41: It does try to do I think is try to combine the actions of

01:01:46: remembering with the actions of the actions of imagining so this idea of honouring was gone before recognising that but also imagine in the construction of new Futures

01:01:56: I think that's a very healthy way too kind of trying.

01:02:02: New Ford and make sense of the situation because in some ways.

01:02:08: The past is weighing heavily upon us but.

01:02:13: If we can look at new ways of making sense of that not denying any of it of course but maybe revisiting it and maybe thinking about it in the ways of the constructive for us then I think that.

01:02:26: That can be a positive experience and I think that from the reaction to the exhibition.

01:02:31: Often people were very moved by it of people felt very kind of you know elated when they came out so I think something was work.

01:02:40: Yeah I think this idea of a new future new possibilities imagination that something you and other Romany artists other activists and scholars intellectual be like to bring up the avant-garde Aurora

01:02:53: being at the forefront of something new and then

01:02:56: I was just wondering when you look it up from the intellectual aesthetic all of these things I just want to bring it back again to the community if if you can say anything about the reactions from different members of the community about the side different futures or how can how can we be leading into the future this the example of present of a potential future.

01:03:15: That's a good point the exhibition in Venice the opening was.

01:03:22: It's obviously an exclusive thing so the opening was what it was

01:03:28: the other artists were all they're the ones that could be there with their they had very positive experience about the exhibition not surprisingly I suppose Winx around the run-in I think.

01:03:40: October of.

01:03:42: 2019 ariat arranged a a large group of Roma from the outskirts of Venice to come to the exhibition and.

01:03:52: My reports that I heard from that was that that there was very well received and that people can have got a lot from the exhibition possibly.

01:04:01: Mainly in terms of actually getting a trip to to The Gallery to see you know what was happening in the be an early I'm not sure but my you have to ask about this to get more details about

01:04:15: in terms of wider Communities and

01:04:17: you know how it's hard those messages are kind of received I'm not sure I mean I think we can we can you know we can say I can do a lot of things done things on the heart can't do it

01:04:30: it can't feed people that can't you no change political regimes but I think.

01:04:38: In the area that it can operate generally I think they can offer people some kind of way forward in terms of thinking.

01:04:48: That there are others that are making these moves forward I mean I think it's a mistake to get too ambitious about how the art world or how are can affect change but I think it's.

01:05:02: In a way it's more a reflection of the possibilities and what's occurring now then it is about actually.

01:05:08: Ok it's interesting I just I'm making a little bit of a side here because I'm really my my question was just too

01:05:17: I was wondering how other Romany people saw there's any 50 identified with the avant-garde and and you answered that quite well

01:05:24: and I felt a little bit like the weight of the world just dropped on your shoulder is because you're you're you're talking

01:05:30: and then you know that you can solve all the problems but it's not your job to solve other problems I'm sorry to make you think that I didn't want you to to to do something like that with you

01:05:39: just because I'm talking about the community doesn't mean that you need 2/7 start feeling guilty that your orders and you can't solve everyone's problems that's that's that's not the question I really wanna bring back back to you it's ok.

01:05:54: Answer the question a bit more but that's things a bit for me bill thank you for that and I think that.

01:06:02: People most gypsy people most people aren't interested now gone garden think about it.

01:06:08: Really I think it's you know it's it's a theoretical and.

01:06:14: Intellectual pursuit which is Which is valuable but.

01:06:19: I think that most people are struggling and they really need some help and I don't know how how far

01:06:26: my ideas help them with that and ok no I was just thinking it might be like just another light of the future another model to follow adjusting ideas like someone I can imagine a young person ring and things like that I don't know what that word means

01:06:41: with the future and we have a future and we're really like the people should look to us because we have the answer as that's that's kind of inspiring and I was just wondering if someone

01:06:50: thank you for your answer but I was just wondering if someone might have been thinking that way and that's what I was

01:06:57: Katie getting up down I hope so hope so sometimes it's even easier it's just about visibility it's just about we are visible

01:07:07: exactly.

01:07:08: Music.

01:07:15: I strongly believe in art as a tool of resistance and I mean there is an immersion contemporary money art seen in the last decade.

01:07:25: Do you think

01:07:26: the drama I can offer in Loughborough distance or in other words what what does it take for a money are to fully develop its power did we reach a critical mass.

01:07:38: I've always had an issue with the the concept of Rome are as such real because I'm not sure how useful the idea is

01:07:47: Ender general sense it certainly used for in terms of its users as a kind of marketing tool for political activism and you know that that's great if you can do that fantastic but I think most artist wood

01:08:03: what the work described as Roma heart I mean obviously it it can operate in that in that role but

01:08:11: most artists that I know want their art to operate on many levels and to pigeon hole in that way is problematic but you're not obviously.

01:08:21: There's room for for for using.

01:08:25: Works of art by Roma to tip to put forward an argument and that reflects one of the many functions of art I think so.

01:08:36: I just think that because I want to anyway move away from the idea of Rome are even though I think it's a very useful it's a very useful categorisation for for curators and for theorists and for writers I think when you sweetheart

01:08:47: their resistance to this idea so it's interesting me talking about this resistance because I think it is very.

01:08:54: Powerful tool of resistance closing as many as many sites that they can operate on I think we don't have a critical mass at the moment I think working towards it there are many very good.

01:09:04: Artist of Origin we need more and.

01:09:10: What we need more than that actually is for our work to start to appear in national Museums and national narratives and in.

01:09:19: Contemporary art discourse more thoroughly than it does the moment really has looked to at the moment in a rather getaways manner I would say so that I think that's even though.

01:09:34: Visual Arts have been a huge step forward for Roman masturbation I think the political organisation needs to be much more efficient it is now I don't mean anyway reach for potential at the moment so.

01:09:48: I think that's the most valuable thing for

01:09:53: function for October form now is for works by Roma artists to be included in national collections and national narratives important museums and it's been written about and I think

01:10:08: absolutely I mean maybe now it's the right time to to fight this because now and then in the frame of the black lives matter

01:10:16: movement also the museum start asking themselves so what about our collections what about the the presentation of marginalised groups in our collections black people women drama so maybe maybe something will change and what you describe those discussions

01:10:35: many Romany artists during the last years always this idea

01:10:41: what favour called the strategic essentialism so first develop this label of Roma art to then in a second.

01:10:50: Deconstruct again as soon as you have this visibility and have this political 5 done you but I know what you mean

01:10:58: are there any upcoming projects you weren't all these nerves to draw their attention to.

01:11:04: Would Isaac Blake at the moment customise company will be developing his gypsy make a project brca2 gypsy make a project into the next year there were a couple.

01:11:14: Private land working at the moment I can't talk about that doesn't really help but

01:11:19: it's the show in Florence the Futurama showing is still on in Florence for another couple of weeks so if anyone is nearby they could could take a look at

01:11:29: yep I think that that's as far as things I can discuss that's that's about at the moment.

01:11:35: And another information for our listeners Daniel Baker has a website Daniel Baker dotnet and they are you can see a lot of this lot of hard work so I'll have a look

01:11:47: is it a website you're definitely have a visit you like present as much as I do don't.

01:11:56: Yes I do we ask our guests to bring us one a virtual.

01:12:03: And we were asking the guests to bring an update or an item or non material.

01:12:10: Tells an important biographical and a door represents a.

01:12:14: For idea or guiding principles in the life of August 4th and what did you bring us well I brought them

01:12:23: you a copy of the Futurama catalogue which is.

01:12:31: And we managed to

01:12:34: get some funding for a catalogue at beginning of this year obviously with the Coven issues there was some delays and its production but if I only came out in September and so I have a copy of that for you but also because I can't give it to you now.

01:12:49: There's a virtual version which you can download from either from my website or from the area website

01:12:56: you can not holding your hands even actually read and look at the content so that's what I would like to

01:13:04: great thanks I'm looking for that thank you sorry this means that the this this exhibition was a very important moment for you.

01:13:13: Yes absolutely the Futurama exhibition with the combination of a number of things I've been interested in for a long time the beginning of my PhD research

01:13:21: into gypsy Aesthetics focused on an exhibition that I created along with Ryan in 2006

01:13:31: 2007

01:13:34: logos with a play on the idea of the no travellers sign gorgeous being the Romany word for non gypsy person so this exhibition dealt with a lot of the things that I'm dealing with the future Roma inside dear of combining.

01:13:48: Looking closely at domestic Isaac practice and buying that with a kind of contemporary or Sensibility looking at works and biographies of the people and make them and of represent the Communities of things that start

01:14:03: let's say 14 years ago I've been developing throughout my career and the Futurama so really I think

01:14:10: brings all of those together and allowed me to go further certainly in terms of Geographic scope of the exhibition and the Artists involved but also in terms of the ideas which have brought up to

01:14:22: in terms of inclusion and visibility and in terms of making a case for Gypsy presents to be felt within museums and National narratives in order to our.

01:14:36: Community.

01:14:36: Music.

01:14:47: For you to be to be Roma you said once in the past successful ROM what is appear from money society.

01:14:55: Today there's an elite with university degrees when cyst on the one that identity is it still an exception when granny's are British nominees openly in proudly present.

01:15:09: Yes I think it is I did some work recently with new Buckinghamshire University.

01:15:15: They had a project which was about encouraging

01:15:20: gypsy Roma traveller students into higher education and strategies to make that happen I think it is still an issue yes I'm not sure if that's for the same kind of reasons that I explain when I was at school i e.

01:15:34: Not seeing yourself reflected back and therefore not identifying or decided that decided that Irish cases not for you I think there are many things we still need

01:15:46: done to encourage people in the higher education but you know that said how is the case is not the only route to move forward I mean

01:15:55: anything that makes you happy and say it is perfectly viable and should be pursued so I think I'm certainly in the UK let's say although there are.

01:16:07: Small number of gypsy Roma travellers who work in The Professionals who will.

01:16:13: Discuss their identity in those terms you still don't want to because.

01:16:20: Maybe the mist too high that they may come across discrimination in the workplace

01:16:25: or within the educational environment for some people still see the risk so you don't see any new trend anything coming from within the community of people being more open you think good.

01:16:36: Pre-match still the same will you know there's still a lot of dry negative

01:16:40: media coverage of gypsies and in the UK always on the TV there's a problem mate should never good program about gypsies it's you know it's always have anything rubbish other stealing stuff so it's no surprise that people don't want to be associated with

01:16:55: and I will declined to be identified and along these programs.

01:17:02: They call themselves documentaries investigative journalism they all entertainment programs their titillate and a letter to basically spread misinformation about gypsies and.

01:17:14: You know it's that kind of thing is still being commissioned by broadcasting companies then.

01:17:22: And it goes right to the unchallenged I mean when my Big Fat Gypsy Wedding came out there was lots vocal opposition to that in the community but it didn't really make much difference and the silicone viewing figures and

01:17:37: advertising revenue means they just come out with the same old rubbish so it doesn't sound very optimistic but I think things have changed on the ground that much

01:17:46: ok I was wondering just from the point of view that you're since the 90s there's been a lot of Roman immigrated to the UK and whether that's had any influence on mixing of ideas with a community order

01:17:59: basically everything is still very separate and apart and in terms of.

01:18:07: Different gypsy Roma groups you know we are adjusting 100 on brella over kind of have an inclusive Labour Party

01:18:17: commonalities outweigh our differences certainly but there's a lot of nuance and difference between different promogroup so they're not as not as Siri harmony there.

01:18:26: I would say that as much as you know and overwriting label as you need up that's a bit earlier.

01:18:34: Isabel I think it's great to be able to to have you know a label under which two to move forward and make the the steps politically but there

01:18:45: also needs to be an account of the difference within those Communities that is the same the families in with within gay Rights you start with a

01:18:53: as you start with an umbrella and then things start to change because you realise that there's no homogeneity.

01:19:03: I'm not aware of a great deal of of change on the ground I hope I'm wrong but.

01:19:09: That's that's how I see things what you see and what you hear.

01:19:16: How tradition survive because the community is so closed in a positive way it's working so well in the inside or because it's still marginalized as it's ok.

01:19:27: Protection strategy I think it's probably both I think we're still very marginalized as a group on the hall

01:19:35: within national territories but I think there's a very strong unifying sense of identity through cultural bonding activities Common.

01:19:46: Language that kind of thing I think it's ready a mixture of both

01:19:49: as I said earlier the idea of discrimination still being very widespread in terms of the media I think that certainly makes people can knuckle down and cannot get on with things and not want to reveal parts in cells they don't need to.

01:20:04: I think it's a combination of the two.

01:20:07: I think it's very important notes on This podcast that we do not stop emphasising the heterogeneity of promo there's not

01:20:16: 1 Romani cultural not one fixed picture or culture of promise you think a very very important

01:20:25: information.

01:20:27: Yeah exactly that's why we're talking to a number of different people to get a number of different experiences and hopefully young people within the various Romany Communities would like to listen and find out about the other because it's

01:20:41: often that you get a chance to do.

01:20:44: Shall we play a little game or is sociation game and we didn't tell you before him

01:20:53: we're in outreach Sam's terms and your answer very spontaneous latest without thinking with one word or just a beautiful sentence ok.

01:21:01: Ok art fascinating community truth resistance.

01:21:12: Everywhere nature life.

01:21:19: Set home.

01:21:28: This little one life yesterday today tomorrow.

01:21:36: The day after brexit chaos Europe.

01:21:46: Chaos Dino.

01:21:50: Do you know Romani or dino in continental European Romani.

01:21:59: Is an acoustic bucket bucket friends anti-judaism despicable.

01:22:09: Music.

01:22:15: Dino is the angloromani word for fool for foolish.

01:22:20: Is the central European version of the same word that can be foolish another way to say it is my sugar not crazy you're stupid it's the diminutive of the word deal.

01:22:32: This is originally an adjective but can be used as a noun and in both cases even people who don't know remind me very well but often noticed.

01:22:39: It's because lying in the dominant language in the number of regions is the word for luck it's the Central European version.

01:22:49: In Slack.

01:22:52: Lactulose is the adjective in happy or lucky may be happy and lucky.

01:23:01: Essentially and culturally significant word just as it's opposite is be back door be back door which means bad luck.

01:23:08: We wish you all the happiness and we often a boy talking about unlucky things in many for money traditions.

01:23:15: Gojo is the angloromani word for a non romantic person in Central European Romani the word is God roll in its original sense it's not a Geordie.

01:23:24: Depending on context and turn the voice it can be pejorative and people not familiar with the Romani language often presumed this negative meaning it is equivalent to gentile for non Jewish person.

01:23:36: Engine This podcast we talk about utopia and dreams of Rama for Europe and we want to present for my as role models as people we can we the majority Society come from.

01:23:50: Crisis can become a starting point for inclusion for changes sometime so do you think this current crisis we are facing the Corona pandemic the climate change set

01:24:03: canape such a starting point in Europe in.

01:24:07: Yes I think there's always a possibility for starting points and I think utopia is based on the premise of optimism really I mean generally the idea of you take me to me suggest the unattainable so I kind of.

01:24:19: It's not something I spend my time thinking about but certainly if I think about it in terms of optimism.

01:24:24: Optimistic person so I always believe that things can be better vets.

01:24:30: Is interesting particular relation to the virus situation the moment I.

01:24:37: Remember us TV series I think about night 2014 it was in the UK with cold utopia and it was about

01:24:45: conspiracy theory this organisation and developed a pathogen which they were about to release onto the population and the twist in this 115 programs.

01:24:59: Partly coloured light-hearted but the the main premise of this was that you found out towards the end

01:25:05: was that the only people that were immune to this pathogen with a Roma so I mean

01:25:15: utopia ok I'm looking at the reason then it struck me.

01:25:22: Was because when I watched it in 2014 was because this included

01:25:30: wasn't signal to tour within the whole of the program or by any of the stuff around about the program I was watching it at home towards the end of the second series and suddenly this idea of this pathogen being made in order for Roma.

01:25:45: It was about Recreation that's what it was about making people sterile the only thing I didn't make sterile were the Romans so was about the Earth

01:25:55: I'm not I'm not saying that's a fantastic idea when I'm saying is that what I found interesting was that it was

01:26:02: a narrative within which Roman were located but it wasn't sensationalised it wasn't he wasn't signal that wasn't signposted it was kind.

01:26:13: A nice surprise to see Rome including something which was very well produced which wasn't about all the.

01:26:20: Negative stuff about Gypsy again I'm not saying that people are living but just that this is how really our lives be portrayed as.

01:26:35: Within the narrative of your other people's lives is not about making a specialist about making a Sikh.

01:26:41: Number for interesting point there when you will be out of the crisis if there could be some kind of situation that arises were all it just happens to be there

01:26:52: the wrong I can do this or that and all the sudden it's just there is an aspect to to us that can be normalised that would be

01:27:01: way to get out of the get out of the chaos with with that take it one step further and in what way what would be that one thing I do than

01:27:13: not surviving a virus but maybe maybe something else if there is is there an aspect that you could maybe imagine but brother in what way could run my serve as a model for a new way of understanding

01:27:24: Europe or the UK of tomorrow yes I think in terms of adaptability.

01:27:33: And the way that very registrar has been seen to be failing over not just during the pandemic but over the last.

01:27:43: 10 15-years the weather Europe as.

01:27:46: Displayed a certain degree of inflexibility and all the countries involved in terms of a kind of a lumbering in a handbrake pro-europe by the way but I think there are certain structures within Europe that.

01:27:59: Fail the Communities because of the inability to react and to adapt and to bring in contingencies that you know maybe foreseeable and is very guilty of that in the UK so I think Roman adaptability

01:28:17: is certainly one of the many things that could be used as a model but also the Roman sustainability in terms of living lightly on the land

01:28:25: you know not not impacting too much on her surroundings

01:28:29: you know very much in the past have been vilified for for messing up areas of land at that we can have settled upon but.

01:28:37: You know anything that that the real damage the lad is being done by pollution and corporations that are not being held to account for the

01:28:45: and the damage to the caravan sites in France in the UK is not because of the Roman or there but because the authorities don't allow access to water that they should be required to give by law and another issue was not the wrong with themselves so I really like that you're adaptability and sustainability those are both very

01:29:03: very relevant traits for today and for the future and belong to a transnational solidarity am I romanticising or is there this transnational solidarity within the community

01:29:16: yes there certainly is again I think the grassroots level I think it's more of I think it's more than aspiration for the for the big movers but.

01:29:27: Yes that's certainly intellectually decided transnationality is very important the reality is that on the ground.

01:29:35: I'm not sure how that operates really certainly in terms of language and I did a mobility order restriction upon mobility of running people I think it's the idea of trans nationality is more than.

01:29:47: And an idea

01:29:48: can you type in ideal absolutely which is very important as an idea but again I would bring us back to the idea of how this operates on the ground and

01:29:58: I think it's important for us to be aware that the high-flying idea that we have in terms of our artworks and our Uno intellectual conceptualisation

01:30:09: are important but.

01:30:12: We still need to be by concerned about what's happening on the ground.

01:30:20: Link to the end of the podcast what is your utopia Daniel what's your dream for Europe and and if you could have a Roma Tokyo for the UK or for Europe world what would it look like.

01:30:34: 8 quid in a word would be a quality really in equality

01:30:39: enough food enough utilities the people have to carry on their lives in a comfortable manner that would be my idea of Utopia really it's I think that the core of any kind of

01:30:50: political movement political fight is is the striving for equality and I think that's that would underpin my idea of over YouTube

01:30:59: nice one last game if you could ask one question on all radio TV and print Media in Europe for one day what would question

01:31:12: that's good question that question would be.

01:31:20: Why aren't there any gypsies in your organisation.

01:31:27: Good one very very good last sentence for his very first episode of the.

01:31:34: Podcast romatopia romantic about the auto PS4.

01:31:38: Thank you so much for being our guest it was so nice talking to you I mean we could continue for hours.

01:31:46: P.s. we could I really appreciate your personal insights you or your opinions are you put it all together very nicely I think I hope our listeners agree my pleasure thank you very much thank you then.

01:32:04: Supported by the federal Agency for Civic education and the council of Europe Roma travellers team Isabella.

01:32:13: Isabel Williams and directed by Carter Lane.

01:32:18: Sound design by selamat and kept prisoner by Daniel Baker production Media breaks Berlin 2020.