00:00:00: I realised that for a long time I turn my back on a huge part of myself are you the Gypsy part of my.

00:00:07: Probably because being a school in secondary school I felt these were in a way.

00:00:12: Going to be a hindrance to my getting on in the world and it becomes second nature once I am braised my Communities knowledge and my experience of my community.

00:00:23: Music.

00:00:32: Romatopia utopia.

00:00:37: Upper Totterdown welcome to the very first episode of the podcast.

00:00:46: VR armour talk about their autopia for Europe my name is Isabella and I'm hosting this podcast together with William.

00:00:54: And a big welcome to everyone also from my side

00:00:58: in the coming months we will be talking to a number of noteworthy community members from a varied cross-section of the Romani people's propose who do not know

00:01:06: remind me people's are Europe's largest minority and that includes sincere Omar gitanos romanys and other groups to share common ancestry and have been present in Europe for well over 600 years

00:01:17: theories we know that the originated in India travel Peugeot and were present in the eastern Roman Empire for sometime before this person.

00:01:26: Their Economic and cultural contributions have historically been overlooked their history is an integral interwoven part of European history which also is often mistaken as one of the Eternal exclusion in heart.

00:01:38: No periods of extreme persecution did make their mark well before the 20th century and the genocide which we saw for during the Second World War.

00:01:46: After the Fall of the Iron Curtain in 1989 the Romani people's have gradually been making themselves more visible on the European seen how many people do all listeners that.

00:02:00: But now that our very first to guess the artist curator and serious than you.

00:02:07: Hello Isabelle thank you for inviting me it's a pleasure to be here.

00:02:12: Prepare a little game to start with a friend of yours to describe you in one sentence I'm going to read this sentence to you and then you have to guess who said this

00:02:22: ok

00:02:24: When I'm travelling throughout Wales they think of Daniel he's a kind hearted so full of spirit and inspiration.

00:02:33: I'm Wales in a big clue I think that might be

00:02:37: director memory card company

00:02:44: indeed if Isaac Blake you've dancer and choreographer from Wales director of the Romani cultural and Arts company maybe tell us a bit about those drivers through Waze.

00:02:54: Well yes I've known Isaac for

00:02:57: about 2013 77 years to produce an exhibition for a gypsy Roma traveller History Month in the UK for 2014 so we had some funding from the Arts Council Wales and.

00:03:14: Basically commissioned an exhibition from me which I was very pleased to accept since then I've worked with Isaac on a number of occasions

00:03:21: around workshop something like this for Travelodge it's the people in Wales and also known gypsy Roma traveller people in schools and in galleries and that kind of thing

00:03:32: also been working on his gypsy make a project for the last few years acting as a mentor

00:03:40: adviser to the artist that are selected to take part in a programme again they offered an amount of money to produce an exhibition which term is it then tours throughout Wales so

00:03:52: so friend so we had a good progress and have a good friendship as well grt gypsy Roma and traveller.

00:04:02: CRT is an umbrella term used in the UK to describe a number of different minority groups gypsies Romany working indigenous in the UK approximately the 16th century.

00:04:13: Roma with my grades in UK and recent decades in Irish travellers have been present for more than 1000 years

00:04:19: gypsies Romany as well as travellers has been reading mostly I tonight lives until recently where is roma have been traditionally set.

00:04:27: Just used as a Charm by the people themselves to describe themselves and is not necessarily the translation equivalent of minority gun those unnecessarily pejorative.

00:04:41: Which may be inaccurate but reflects common usage by the people will use these names to describe themselves.

00:04:50: Lipstick with your biography of it can we ask you to describe yourself in one sentence

00:04:57: yes I will apart from the obvious things like I will go on to say that I'm gonna come up with ideas and I'm focused in carrying out those ideas so that's

00:05:10: how I see myself and ideas personal which can make those ideas a reality.

00:05:17: Sounds good let me just give a little bit of an introduction to our listeners basically Daniel Baker is an artist for curator and researcher

00:05:30: all the PhD on the subject of Gypsy Aesthetics from the Royal College of Art London

00:05:36: Daniel Baker curated the exhibition Futurama at the 58th international art exhibition at the Venice biennale in 2019

00:05:44: he acted as exhibitor and advisor to the first and the second Roma Pavilions Paradise Lost.

00:05:50: And call The Witness at the 52nd and 54th Venice biennale respective.

00:05:55: Is working be found in collections worldwide figure worked as visual advisor for ROM archive digital archive of the Grandma and contributed to its density.

00:06:04: His former chair of the Gypsy council and Daniel Baker currently lives and works in London is that correct is there anything else you want to add to that.

00:06:14: No that sounds about right ok great homework what is your most vivid memory of your.

00:06:26: Relax good question I suppose in terms of my

00:06:32: current occupation I'm very much aware and I'm influenced by memories of the

00:06:41: interior of my parents home by the time I was born my parents weren't travelling anymore they weren't living in caravans I was the last of

00:06:50: 6 children and by that time they moved into housing provided by the local authority there was a large site.

00:06:58: But I lived on for a number of years which changed hands and then got developed so the council put them into social housing and I remember

00:07:08: the decor of my parents home being for

00:07:12: glass cabinets with ornamented crockery ceramic figurines mirrored background to these cabinets which reflected these got a precious objects from all sides so my name is already of these fascinating colour visual visually stimulating.

00:07:30: Displays within my girls home allowed to play with us or where they really safe and holy in these last Kevin.

00:07:39: Well yes they were really Out of Reach so now we weren't allowed to play with them my father and my sister is actually used to make a lot of things so

00:07:50: my father would make flowers from wood so it carve a terminal what which would it was

00:07:55: forward to make flowers many died them and also make paper flowers as well from Crepe paper and wire so my sister's not the things that we could could kind of play with and having

00:08:15: what kind of

00:08:16: going on the things that were the Cabinets like often these things in the Cabinets had lots of ornamentation with flowers and birds and that kind of thing so we want to play the crockery but we could play with the things that my dad

00:08:27: you said that your parents move into a house from a site for time before you were born did they want to move into a house over there first.

00:08:37: That's good question I'm at your full questions actually it keep saying I'm not sure actually what the answer that is I think by the time

00:08:45: I have come along they have 6 children and they were relatively settled on this particular site it was called corks Meadow otherwise known as the pit because it was a chalkpit in in Kent and this was a huge

00:09:00: travocyte and they

00:09:03: live there for a long period of time so I think they were very settled in the area I imagine that when they were offered

00:09:11: housing by the council because there was no possibility of moving their caravans

00:09:16: to another site in the same area I imagine that they kind of accepted willingly I think it probably took a while to adjust to living in a house rather living in a caravan or trailer but

00:09:28: there were lots of families they did the same thing so the street that they were moved into eventually leading to prefabricated housing which is was very common after the war in in the in the UK and then they are permanently build house.

00:09:42: Where I was born and I think having in a bedrooms and a bathroom and stuff was all quite new to them but I think it was probably welcomed I would imagine after having 6 kids kind of strings.

00:09:57: And how is it going to school in this area I guess so you you weren't the only Romany kid in school and I imagine practicing your brothers and sisters went to the same school how do you feel.

00:10:08: Well my next sibling to me is about 9 years older than me so much actually has got the same time but with the Gypsy families obviously in the area which went to the same school but it wouldn't really communicate with each other.

00:10:23: And I have thought about this actually a number of occasions and I think certainly in school

00:10:32: quite well at school and I think I had ever had the feeling that in order to participate in school and to make a go of it my gypsy as would not be welcome there so.

00:10:43: I definitely feel up there was a in hindsight I felt that as a young child

00:10:48: I think it was a young child you have a very kind of candy sense of how the world works and maybe that.

00:10:54: Not the case of felt that way that there were certain things that I couldn't couldn't do in order to kind of fit in if you like and by fixing him become.

00:11:03: Maybe what I wanted to be or be less conspicuous so you didn't necessarily yourself

00:11:09: experience discrimination at school but maybe you seem over kids who did was that part of the reason why you did this or Arnold did you did you see it discrimination or feel it at all and then

00:11:21: yeah I might as well but that didn't mean that I kind of made links with other gypsies in the school I think I felt I don't know to be honest I mean that I think of solidarity there but

00:11:35: maybe I felt that would kind of compound.

00:11:39: Lionel what other people thought I'm not sure but yeah definitely explain discrimination and that in a way made me more kind of Brazilian and made me think well

00:11:51: you know I really have to try twice as hard to get anywhere here and the teachers weren't.

00:11:56: I don't think but certainly somebody else the other people I mean children and children like to go for the jugular but

00:12:06: yes although they will do many children there

00:12:08: didn't feel like there was a gypsy community in the in the school I think that's partly because there was no facility within the school to accommodate this identity so there was no teaching about

00:12:18: gypsy history Roman history and was before the roads was coined officially actually because that was born in 1971

00:12:26: actually very near to where I was born in st. Mary Cray I was born in 61 so I was kind of.

00:12:31: Early school in the late 60s and early 70s so what time and I think that.

00:12:41: We cope with these things the best way that we can rum is the word for a Romani man.

00:12:49: Romney is the word for a reminder.

00:12:53: Roma is the plural form and an English sometimes it's used as an adjective is the plural of Romany remaining.

00:13:03: Romani is the adjective this refers to Roma.

00:13:07: It is the correct adjective to use in English as well no money cheap is the Romani language with a Romanian.

00:13:15: - is often used to refer to the Romanian language but literally it means in the room.

00:13:21: Music.

00:13:28: Later in the 70s as a teenager and school was there what was it like

00:13:33: I guess you're there was a different time maybe this was also something that just didn't come up but I want to throw out the question anyway as a teenager

00:13:44: kids notice other things and they get their ideas and they go for the Jogger there was there an issue with you being gay at school in high school

00:13:53: yes definitely and I think that's compounded with the Gypsy business you know that my kind of Gypsy identity only went to secondary school I mean

00:14:04: my partner and I can go to a grammar school so

00:14:08: it was a school that was populated in terms of the staff by ex-military so it was it was all quite strict it was all boys school single sex school and.

00:14:20: I was feeling very much kind of there was some things about me which I knew were going to be problematic in a secondary school situation for one thing being a gypsy for wanting being gay so that.

00:14:33: Really yeah it was tough because I was getting more

00:14:38: Castle about the gay thing and I never came out as gay to anyone but people assume that was gay and they were quite right I didn't disabuse them of that no sugar and I never played into a dialogue about it I kind of I mean that

00:14:52: many people that they picked on in terms of that kind of issue but I was never physically attacked or anything like that but the

00:15:00: the name calling was colour.

00:15:02: Petty and things I'm feeling with now in terms of my studio work and my

00:15:19: somebody my writing are rooted in my experience of of double Prejudice what would call now intersectionality I suppose and of a coming together of various

00:15:30: aspects of identity which other people might find issues with and the navigation of that is something which.

00:15:39: I experienced on

00:15:42: a number of levels I mean when I was growing up I didn't tell my family I was gay so there was a whole idea of having to keep this piece of information about myself away from

00:15:51: all aspects of my kind of social interactivity where is the Gypsy thing obviously my family would gypsy so that was something I felt comfortable with

00:15:59: so if I started with these things and that really informed a lot of the research that I went on to do around my master's degree after my first degree in fine art

00:16:10: I went on another his later actually kind of by accident I went on to take part in a master's degree in

00:16:20: sociology under professor Thomas Acton who's is a great man and he was very kind of period but my

00:16:28: work my research for that master degree focused on gay gypsy identities because that was something that I felt really haven't been

00:16:36: I'm covered by any writings about Roman history leaving and the gay writings in the history of

00:16:44: the great history and nothing about gypsies in it the Roman history had nothing about gay people in it so.

00:16:51: When it came to turn of carry out my final dissertation for the master's degree I said to Thomas and I'd like to send a longer gypsies you said nothing about that so have to be from scratch I said yes I have the contacts I can do this and I have my research

00:17:06: training from you I think I can do this and I did it and actually it's that was a very useful piece of research that I've done actually.

00:17:15: Sing something based on that now for a Polish journal so that piece of research that was done in 2000 has got a resonator.

00:17:23: Not only through and my whole directory in terms of ideas of Visual representations and visuality and invisibility but also in terms

00:17:35: the kind of emoji the lgbtq + roam identities.

00:17:40: Really pioneering piece of work there it was much harder for you and those x then it is now because

00:17:47: there is now this LGBT IQ Roma community doing a lot of work and we have now researchers working on the topic and it's very interesting that you turn.

00:17:58: Personal struggle internet and discrimination your facing into a professional

00:18:04: works doing sociology in Romani studies later and then combining all these aspects my next question would originally be when did you decide to become an artist but I wanna form

00:18:16: the other way round what's the struggle of being kind of marginalized I seen as I don't know someone else not really part of the majority Society

00:18:27: did this encourage you to become an artist because.

00:18:31: The position of an artist in society as well always kind of Bohemian position

00:18:38: well I think I was very good at drawing and and making things when I was very young age I was always.

00:18:47: Doing art base things really and I knew from a very young age that I wanted to pursue this as a as a colour.

00:18:56: Suppose we have a rough idea what you want to be when you're very young and as soon as I could I went to Art School without leaving secondary school a bit early so I went to my degree and

00:19:09: I found that very fulfilling in number ways but I did have an issue about finding a voice and that.

00:19:19: Is something that continues for a long time and doing my so so I didn't finish my degree in.

00:19:25: 83 so I'm doing that I'm 83 until I started my master's degree which was in maybe 1999

00:19:36: 1998 I have been making work and.

00:19:42: Really doing that time trying to find a voice to which the kind of communicate in terms of my artwork at the time of my master's degree I was making

00:19:50: could be termed as process painting as that means kind of abstract paintings using things like poured paint basically letting the paint do it's job and basically marshalling that to create the kind of words you want to make it

00:20:04: it had residence within my sociology studies because that was about the behaviour of people so my in my my

00:20:13: painting was about to behaviour of a physical substance I paint so I can see parallels there and I did I did I make a conceptual argument but once I started my PhD

00:20:24: with the encouragement of Thomas actor in the game I then started to look at the history my personal history of my involvement with Gypsy visual culture which as I said the beginning with these amazing

00:20:36: ornaments and cabinets with a child and I realise that point once I entered into my PhD studies which just a year after.

00:20:45: Also my ma I realised.

00:20:50: For a long time I turn my back on a huge part of myself are you the Gypsy part of myself probably because being a school and secondary school I felt these were in away

00:21:00: a hindrance to my getting on in the world so

00:21:03: and it comes second nature so it was something it was I was part of me but it was almost as though there was a door closed on it so we're open that door.

00:21:13: Really the creative flow started to.

00:21:19: Unstoppable so good lesson for me because I realise that when we can embrace all parts of ourselves then.

00:21:29: Things come together and things really start to flow if we're struggling with a part of yourself in my keeping that part of Us closed off it means there's not a free flow of kind of

00:21:38: energy and communication between the counter whole part of yourself so it wasn't until I started my PhD with that I realised the power and

00:21:47: possibilities that.

00:21:49: The visual culture and the community had and that's when things really started to take off in my work I think it changed completely before that I was making his very very kind of dry interesting

00:22:02: in my home on display because I think they are really interesting and they go with every kind of decor that I have but the contrast between those very hard Edge

00:22:11: sober minimalist works and the work that I'm making now couldn't be more different so.

00:22:18: Was almost a dose which was thrown and suddenly once I embraced my knowledge and my experience of my community.

00:22:28: I was unable to fly that's interesting and end but very nice reformulated that you really had to look back to her.

00:22:36: Roma up to the tradition and in order to be able to to make a step into the future right that's where we be already now often the beginning of our of our talk we have to explain

00:22:51: completely other question people come back to your art I promise then and urban or countryside person.

00:23:00: I think I'm an urban person at heart really the place I was born is

00:23:06: is part of a greater London when I was born there I think it wasn't London it was Kent it's still a bit confusing it's basically a victim on a victim it's.

00:23:17: It is it's now a consequence of London expanding and expanding so what was Kent County Council.

00:23:25: Is now the London borough Bromley so it's kind of which is very very kind of appropriate is a kind of liminal area which is.

00:23:34: It's on the green belt

00:23:35: is the countryside resort of the city so it's this kind of mixture of the two and it feels very much the case cos from the the bedroom of my own where I was born you could see the farms in One Direction and on the other direction you can see the score of the city so it's very much kind of

00:23:53: I was born between the two and enjoyed kind of both but now I think I'm more of a country but no a city person

00:24:01: when I do have an allotment in the city which is where I grow.

00:24:05: Best wasn't things so that's that's the kind of annoyed today to the rule side of myself the great job of introducing Hall

00:24:19: how and where you live but got

00:24:21: travelling of Warner maybe just make sure that our listeners understand what that means travelling you're not you're not living in a caravan right now on your point

00:24:32: that's right now I'll leave it I live in an apartment in in London no in fact I've never loved dinner in a caravan my family moved into a house before I was born all my brothers and sisters were born in caravan I'm going to be the exception to do that's a rule in our family but

00:24:50: Isabel says I I travel with my work not so much recently because of the covered restrictions

00:24:57: yes I I certainly enjoy enjoy seeing parts the world that I haven't seen before and my most recent trip

00:25:03: was to Florence sir to ristes the Future Roma exhibition there in

00:25:10: September another going back there a couple of weeks to expect the showdown

00:25:14: and well considering that you do have to travel to places that are quite far away you fly you go to the two different parts of Europe that was the pandemic affected you when your ability to work and you.

00:25:27: Well I haven't seen much of my family throughout the whole pandemic because.

00:25:32: Issues around your self isolating and stuff for some of those people so I can so I haven't haven't visited them once when things were he's up a bit but in terms of my work

00:25:45: and stuff because I work at home

00:25:48: the lockdown restrictions didn't affect me that much because I wasn't having to commute to to a studio really like that so I've been really

00:25:58: is getting on with some things that things I've been working on previously but finishing off things and sons new ideas it's been a bit of an opportunity to

00:26:07: experiment a bit more play around with some ideas that I had that I hadn't had the time to fully commit to so I think I'm very lucky in that

00:26:17: it doesn't matter now I've had to stop doing anything everything was stopped our exhibitions which of courses is difficult because those will either have to be convenient cancelled or restaged certainly.

00:26:29: The Gypsy maker Project I've been working on with Isaac Blake.

00:26:33: We had three exhibition the scheduled for the spring only one of them could happen the others we managed to find other ways of presenting the work i.e. virtual galleries or other kinds of options

00:26:45: and we had a seminar scheduled was a game we had to carry out via zoom

00:26:50: everything has been Tricky and it will continue to be tricky for a while because galleries

00:26:56: will be operating under certain restrictions as I said some of the projects that was due to show in and now postponed to next year but hopefully that they will find a way to adapt and be able to move with those kind of issue.

00:27:10: Let's talk about your ad little bit deeper here so you do installation Skype pictures paintings and as already said the money visual culture is you

00:27:21: main source of inspiration one could say you're fascinating by what you call to say Aesthetics and in your heart you are mixing kind of the visual culture of drama with modernism and contemporary or conceptual

00:27:35: tired and always highlighting the role of the practitioner within the contemporary asked to describe your work in one cell

00:27:43: I make shiny things I love that answer and actually and viable answer to the question what one does tell us a bit about shiny things.

00:27:55: Remain

00:27:56: source of my inspiration as we discussed gypsy material and visual culture and during my research at the Royal College of Art

00:28:06: I examined the number of objects basically cannot to distil and determine what the.

00:28:13: Key qualities were within his objects that made them kind of fascinating to me and also which which kind of located them very much within the Gypsy visual worth.

00:28:23: The Gypsy visual world religious see aesthetic is there something that you defined because

00:28:31: and I know a little bit about your work but I don't know what a gypsy aesthetic is how can that be described because

00:28:37: something that universal across basically all different Romany people so if you could just say a little bit about that to because some people might find that might make a lot of assumptions.

00:28:47: Yeah well the Gypsy has been defined by me I kind of came up with the idea basically because during my studies

00:28:57: I couldn't find anything at all written about Gypsy visual culture lots of stuff about dance about storytelling about

00:29:07: all other kinds of aspects of Gypsy culture nothing about the visual which to me seemed very strange because he's a very visual people so.

00:29:17: I decided that I was well positioned being equipped with skills and also being a

00:29:25: the bigger artist I thought I could you know making it make an examination of this phenomena so I set about

00:29:32: writing about research and chips which is in effect gypsy athletics to tell me the number of qualities and please could be summed up by easily I mean this is my opinion so this is my kind of things I think they are the other people may find in a residence order

00:29:56: the kind of defining defining factors are I would say the account of currency of display and concealment this idea of of showiness which is in effect

00:30:09: employed in order to to maintain privacy

00:30:12: and things I like Shining is flashing it's very much coronavirus that can be can be seen in things like in a jewellery that gypsy people might wear lots of gold stuff the ways that I described earlier my

00:30:26: the decor of my family home which has lots of shiny things in glass cabinets with mirrors a lot of reflective surfaces what's the fight ornamentation I kind of baroque sensibility.

00:30:38: They are very kind of things are describing as a kind of Gypsy aesthetic and although the visual manifestations of this would be

00:30:46: in things like my pattern juxtapositions of kind of clashing colours shiny surfaces mirrored surfaces

00:30:55: your gold and silver that kind of thing they are the physical manifestations when I was suggest that the mechanism for the recurring there are based around this process of.

00:31:06: Displaying in order to conceal and that I would say the protection mechanism at the reign of developed over many many hundreds of years in order to kind of Main saying a

00:31:18: distance from prying eyes which in

00:31:24: I trying to kind of uncover what's going on within the kind of private gypsy world of the aesthetic qualities which are

00:31:34: shyness is a good example but it's about other things it's about mechanisms that have been learnt or developed through a positioning of marginalisation within Society.

00:31:45: Do you define this this gypsy Aesthetics 4

00:31:49: how many groups all over Europe or is your research focusing on on the UK

00:31:55: has focused on the UK yes but I would say that partly because gypsy gypsy Roma and traveller in the UK have been more recently nomadic and I think that

00:32:08: is quite a significant Factor I mean in another parts of Central and Eastern Europe because.

00:32:18: The actuator of nomadism has been left behind a long time ago there are certain other.

00:32:26: Aspects of the visual culture of those Communities which I have looked at in terms of narrative painting in that kind of thing but I can still find someone marriage is between

00:32:36: between those kinds of narrative works under the words about describing in terms of decor and tools and implements and dress and that kind of thing that are happening in the UK is very much more established within the central eastern European culture.

00:32:55: In northern European culture how do you say in Spain and in France in England in in the whole of the UK and in Sweden.

00:33:04: I think that the idea of art is very much removed from out from our sense of the world so how are basically takes place within the home

00:33:13: we don't we don't have paintings and things that we we don't offer the same kind of value for those things

00:33:20: I think we reinstall more value in things like you know the cups you drink and I just think that the Romans.

00:33:34: Alright but in a way the the the qualities and the mechanisms I'm talking about or maybe from.

00:33:44: A bit later in the history of most remote communities in Europe

00:33:48: in Western Europe those qualities are still very much alive I think so I think it's a Gentry.

00:33:54: Think about it in terms of maybe evolution the evolution of the Roma people the gypsy people in Western Europe I think is.

00:34:03: Is Canada a few steps behind national and negative thing I think it's a very interesting thing because we're still very much in touch with certain aspects of the agencies of nomadism

00:34:14: Roma on

00:34:19: maybe so so much in touch with that I think it's still there I think there's an essence of that and I think this idea of a nomadic sensibilities interesting because which I've also written about

00:34:28: because it's not about people moving around it's been passed down which is about these emergencies of you know a community.

00:34:39: Marginalising in Crisis so that I think that stays with.

00:34:43: People even moving around I think that I mean amount that maybe contention to make a lot of flak about that but it doesn't interest in conclusion then it's nice to hear over here to talk to you about your opinion to so explain yourself quite well

00:34:57: what you studied what you come to when and the conclusions you come and how you work with them so that's what we want to hear it

00:35:03: it's very interesting mate I think I saw this idea of but hired only one the one side and domestic are on the other side is really a Western European idea isn't it and as far as I understood in the woman needs visual culture this is very much interwoven with each other there's no such a

00:35:20: distinction between the two

00:35:22: yes I will say that and I think that I have written about this a bit I think that that kind of holding onto the idea of the domestic

00:35:31: within the contemporary is something which defines the emerging contemporary romart sing really that aspect of drawing together from

00:35:42: those different registers and hierarchies a practice is very important and I think it it maintains a connection with the community but also it says the new things about the moment so I think that

00:35:57: is something which can be said that that is a defining factor of the the emerging contemporary art.

00:36:03: And maybe also never expect regarding Roma vs reality is that I mean there was 4 long time there was the length of the written.

00:36:13: Breaking tradition fried it was more in an Oral traditions of ammonia didn't even though now the of course have many many fascinating very

00:36:22: read for money authors and riders is this this also reason that I'm off focusing on this visual aspects.

00:36:31: Absolutely yes I might my parents didn't read alright and we didn't really have books in the home so

00:36:40: this phenomenon of electricity is continued to be an important issue I think and certainly that has determined the exuberance of.

00:36:50: Gypsy visuality of invisibility in not just in terms of in terms of display in terms of dance and you know song

00:37:00: oral traditions they're very heightened and I think because of this

00:37:05: absence of a written tradition and certainly the absence of written tradition reflects the absence of Gypsy from from western Histories from Eastern Histories in a wheel accessories in Fowey

00:37:19: you know why should we

00:37:20: got a gin in the Rain word of course they all all kinds of reasons why we should but being in a way not included is not

00:37:30: an incentive to actually take part so I think that obviously now that's changing and that's good but

00:37:37: one consequence of that absence of literacy has been a very vibrant and energetic and Powerful visual language wish

00:37:47: Roma Communities continue to

00:37:49: use are you saying then then two questions on the one hand it's a kind of political choice aurora kind of resistance too well we're going to do it our way and why are you doing this or

00:38:03: what is it perhaps on that you're taking into consideration Romany gypsies as your audience for your arts you want them to see this you want them are you producing for is is.

00:38:15: I guess the question as interesting I think that you know electricity for long time was a bullet collected by gypsies because I remember when I was

00:38:24: lots of my parents friends saying

00:38:28: 30 model and 3 because I can trust the written word didn't trust people things about them because I don't think I never before here so I think that's very important to remember

00:38:41: but certainly in terms of my work I'm making it for.

00:38:45: As many people as possible really I mean they're I'm always thinking about how this is going to be seen within the drama community and.

00:38:55: Also have you seen as an artist that something that's very important because the way you put things together and the way that you formulate and present your ideas

00:39:05: destiny down the way that can convert your ideas clearly and concisely as possible if that doesn't happen you're doing a job properly if you think I want someone to think about a certain topic look at this.

00:39:18: Doesn't happen then you need to find a way of making a happen and you do that by trying things out getting feedback seeing how you make people feel seeing it makes you feel when you look at what you're doing

00:39:30: so that time and skill to be able to define a language for yourself so I.

00:39:36: I hope that my work has multiple currency in terms of who can relate to it and what kind of level

00:39:43: do you have the feedback from from various Roma Communities from from Europe or from the UK in terms of how they reacted to the

00:39:52: yeah your aesthetic frameworking and how you present things yes I have had feedback from members of the community

00:40:01: they read example I can think of is in maybe 20 years ago

00:40:09: I was asked to show in exhibition down in Kent and one of the pieces that I showed was.

00:40:17: My first Note covers sign which is a it's a kind of highly ornamented.

00:40:23: Sign reflective kind of sign written in a calibre a lovely text it says no travel so this is an example of a static is very inviting to look at but it soon as you can

00:40:38: clearing Manor

00:40:40: and I said this little exhibition down in Kent of which number just came to and a couple of people said to me why did you put that there it's is a gypsy talking I find that

00:40:53: that's interesting what I'm trying to do with that piece of work is to basically display the inner way.

00:41:01: Convert racism still exists within Society although

00:41:05: where is no travellers signs used to occur in pubs and things like that they have him in the window basically sending money gypsies to come in that's against the law now although it does still happen I was speaking to you I'm trying to do here is dressed

00:41:22: awful phrase up and a lovely kind of image to show that still happening but

00:41:27: it's not limited to this idea that this kind of racist sentiment is built into the architecture

00:41:33: of the community of the society is problematic and when I look at that when I want when I when people look at that

00:41:41: is art I want to be disturbed by anything that's that's not a good thing to be kind of seeing

00:41:48: hopefully the Way It Is put together can bring some other aspects into the argument and show that what I'm trying to do is make something more complex and it was kind of thing and strike.

00:41:59: Also has a medical amount of the claim within it

00:42:02: which are still part of the Finger make along with the signs I show these objects with.

00:42:15: Aspects of wildlife and things like flowers or birds but these were then graffitied with kind of crossings out and spray paint

00:42:24: over the actual ornamented image and someone else asked me

00:42:30: why are done that because they said they'd really like to have that piece of work in their home

00:42:34: if it wasn't graffitied and messed up and I explain that when I was trying to do is it's going to look at the way that the gypsy singing Society i.e. the demonize and romanticized and try and bring me to.

00:42:47: Ideas together in a kind of Visual form and try and find a dialogue between the two and I kind of Beauty and between the two and.

00:42:57: To me these work

00:42:59: do offer a kind of problematic account an account of a problematic situation this kind of know polarized ideas of the Gypsies but hopefully they cannot find a way of

00:43:10: untangle that literally untangle that because the the flowers and the birth of their tied up with these kind of graffitied marks

00:43:18: I make them that so although they may be didn't tell them what to have it on in their home they can see what I was trying to do.

00:43:26: So I think that what I was saying about that is people were able to see some aspects of their home life.

00:43:35: Represented with my gallery so if they're saying to me that the things.

00:43:40: Did I make if they were changed a bit like to have them at home that means they would fit into their idea of their home life that kind of affirmation experience of going to a gallery and sing something that.

00:43:52: Part of you has some kind of person you're a drive I think that's an interesting starting point and I think if I was making stuff that people winding her home I think I wouldn't get very far as an artist because that's not my job is but I think so.

00:44:07: People to think about things in relations of them and the complexities of their situation rather than just

00:44:13: being said something which is a kind of a comfortable representation of what people think their lives are I think that

00:44:21: good starting point in the future Roma catalogue you

00:44:27: put it that way the at work act as an extension of the artist approximate you will which intern act as an extension of their community I think this makes it very clear this idea

00:44:39: yes yes that's right we are so I have to talk about one hour artwork Edward state serious because the one of those modus is the cover of over my popular podcast and have to think that we can use

00:44:52: beautiful motive combined with other legs and in this case.

00:44:58: Tuesday European flag which is combined with a one-off leg so you have the blue background with yellow stars and in the.

00:45:05: The red wheel the Romany floor.

00:45:11: At the first world Rama Congress which took place in London in 1971

00:45:16: the Roma flag as well as the Rama anthem jalan-jalan was introduced as a symbol for the international Roma community.

00:45:24: The other half is blue like the sky the lower green like the Earth.

00:45:29: And in the centre is a red spoked wheel a so-called chakra which refers to the Indian origin of the Roma however the flag is not used by all groups.

00:45:39: Most sent email living in Germany reject the flag because the real suggest that drama and Cynthia are still animatic.

00:45:46: Edward state serious what is about what was your idea.

00:45:56: Will this was made as part of an exhibition good makeshift in the subtotal definition was structures and mobility and at exhibition was about the structures that

00:46:06: enhance and in some cases inhibit mobility so I was using things like.

00:46:11: Ropes and wheels and Ladders and it's kind of like a snakes and ladders game with so snakes and Ladders is about you know moving forward with the other guys that moving back down you know Dan a snake

00:46:25: this idea of a rope for example being something good toe in a vehicle with to help mobility blue so you can put across a doorway to stop people coming in so quite simple ideas around

00:46:37: objects that enhance mobility and also.

00:46:41: Inhibited and obviously that has issues around social mobility as well as kind of physical ability so if it's obviously because that's something interesting aside.

00:46:51: Mobility yeah I think it's really important I just wanna throw and I really like that piece and for me I don't know if interpreter

00:47:00: person label from frozen double chin genting basically the ability to move across all of Europe to live in work wherever you want however it's often Roma who get singled out and deported to their home country for some reason

00:47:15: basically it's against the law for a state to be doing that yet we have these issues now that's right that's right

00:47:21: turn the auto States part of the makeshift the exhibition and these are intended as a game with the idea of my built-in mind structure mobility the idea of

00:47:31: kind of a motif on a symbol which would somehow encapsulate.

00:47:37: The idea of inclusion but also operate as a kind of marker of presents so what I mean by that is these flags resituated the wheel from the Roma flag into a flag.

00:47:51: Basically acting as an icon of resistance basically saying these Communities exist within these charities for hundreds of years but also as a kind of a symbol of harmony so

00:48:03: they had a very kind of message but I think the visual experience of them

00:48:08: is very kind of tight and it's very kind of obvious and very clear so I'm very pleased with those designs because what I tried to do with each one I made for that term 814

00:48:22: the Welsh Dragon also with the UK flag and each design was different size wheel into each

00:48:31: flag I thought about how they would best harmonise with the with the existing design of the flag and.

00:48:38: That was a very interesting experience to me because it made me appreciate the existing flags more are you the Welsh flag and the UK flag and me

00:48:47: leg but also made me think about how those flights can be adapted and in that leaving about how those Nations can be kind of you know change so that was very interesting I've recently made 14.

00:48:59: A couple years after that

00:49:00: I was invited to a show at the center for Contemporary Art in Glasgow and it was that exhibition was part of a queer people of colour film festival called glitch and The organizers Wanted a queer person of colour.

00:49:15: Artists to exhibit my work in Venice before and inviting me to do this so I decided to make a new Order state flag using the rainbow flag and the Roman and

00:49:29: that's been interesting to me because I've had lots of request to use the flag for marches than in terms of the publications and so this is a good example for me of an artwork that becomes a very viable

00:49:43: I have a postcard of it on top of my bookshelf

00:49:53: I would say my first no Travis time was a real Turning Point I made the.

00:49:59: Piece for an exhibition allows invited to put on by a friend of mine called Paul Ryan another artist and he was managing a space

00:50:12: in a rural countryside and invite me to make an exhibition for that space and the show was called no travellers based on this piece of work and that's why I started making my mirror pieces on the 7th period for me really

00:50:27: and the exhibition.

00:50:29: Opening no one came so that was quite bowling in some ways but it was interesting for me to see how this.

00:50:39: Working a type of the exhibition was a real deterrent for people to come to the show and Matt in a way made me realise that I was onto something if

00:50:50: if these artworks or the potential idea these artworks was going to have such a strong effect then I was moving in the right direction.

00:50:59: I would like to to come back to electro performance you did in 2013 together with a.

00:51:05: Who's actually also aghast of all podcast later you started your lecturer performing

00:51:11: which were called a rama model the cosmopolitan other with card reading and pan reading and you brought those practices on stage which.

00:51:21: I read as an act of acknowledgement and at the same time to play with stereotypes and I know that you've been strongly criticised from within the community that you put those stereotypes on let's talk about this

00:51:35: stereotypes and

00:51:37: about strategies how to overcome them performance was tricky because before I don't really engage that much on social media but never ever told me that we had lots of

00:51:49: feedback on social media about the prospect of this talk and I think you'll find that most of the.

00:51:55: If not all the negative feedback was before the talk actually happened so people are reacting to what they thought they were going to see and what they see what they saw was something quite different.

00:52:05: I'm sure about that so the idea was to present these iconic activities.

00:52:11: From Rome history from Roman culture from as a way of thinking about discrimination so.

00:52:19: Basically mean if I gave her a card reading a tarot card reading to a purse

00:52:25: it was a private reading all that good Casillas they couldn't hear what he was saying so I did a card reading for this I do card readings myself I kind of it something I do not for money but like that kind of

00:52:35: so I did can't reading with this young woman and

00:52:40: it was about 5 minutes and I'm reading I don't know what I'm reading but it doesn't really matter because it was about reproducing iconic transactional act stage as an example of how

00:52:54: people often bro discriminatory about.

00:52:59: Roma issues no matter what they're asking about just because of the way that they presented so what I mean by that we were looking at ideas of divination of speculation of for which of course is basically what.

00:53:13: Any kind of a fortune telling is in a card reading palm reading is about projecting into the future telling people what might happen and.

00:53:22: When it's about gypsies is damned if he knows criminal it is misleading when it's politicians when it's financial forecasters

00:53:30: when it's weather forecast is fine will listen to take what you say about me you know we weren't Condemned you for it

00:53:38: there's a prejudice I think that just came up with those people that were condemning the

00:53:44: have you got a really good point yeah yeah I was also thinking before the way it was described I'm not sure what this is going to be home but then afterwards of course relieved and entertained and very happy with what happened there

00:53:56: but I am a question to that too I was just wondering the cosmopolitan other isn't really a code word in British collect Society for Jewish I was just wondering was

00:54:06: just a coincidence or was that have anything to do with this decision ok

00:54:13: I'm not sure to be honest because that the cousin for another was kind of added on because my area was the Model that kind of my team and my theory which show my trip about about that in the book I did with Marie flour over after the second room of the video we produced a book called we roam.

00:54:33: A critical reader in Contemporary Arts which is still available and as a conversation between myself and Maria pop over the beginning of that and I talked about this idea that I've been formulating at the time and the other I think that

00:54:46: tying in with some other ideas floating around the the actual event which was a conference for the formal wear

00:54:56: project that Maria Hollywood been organising and which took place at the house to call torin the veldt in Berlin and that's where the performance with me and took place so I think another.

00:55:08: Was Saladin born with some other ideas that was at work on a formulation throughout the whole of the program so I can't really answer your question on

00:55:15: no thanks that are interesting question that come Back to the Future Roma exhibition in Inverness

00:55:23: this exhibition I think the Futurama the title refers to afrofuturism afrofuturism reimagines the past and visions

00:55:33: what can be that fact follows fiction and the future will be the real mosquito what is the idea.

00:55:42: Well the exhibition

00:55:44: draws together a number of things I've been interested for a long time really and these are basically around hierarchies a practice and.

00:55:54: Dissemination and also collecting so what I

00:55:58: interested in here is to look at things like links between domestic and professional artistic practice which is what we talk about a bit before between individual archives and state collections and is it

00:56:11: those different positioning of kind of interact so the exhibition has.

00:56:18: Examples of various types of work domesticated the practice and profession.

00:56:24: Contemporary art practice and also it has works from national Museums from private archives from the artist on collection so this

00:56:34: project was the metre British had a lot of things that have been preoccupied me for a while and.

00:56:40: I had been European room is due for us and Culture they put out a call for proposals for the.

00:56:48: Venice biennale in 2019 for a Roman exhibition there and I started in about how I could formulate these ideas into something for that

00:56:58: and I had been looking at the idea of African futurism in relation to something else and this was.

00:57:07: A framework that could be inhabited by.

00:57:10: Roma groups in order to Canada think about our situation and how.

00:57:18: We might navigate navigate our way can I forward so.

00:57:23: The exhibition itself the concept draws upon certain aspects of afrofuture embrace the whole kind of sci-fi thing but that's not what about anyway I understand that but The Terror.

00:57:38: Is a gentle drawing a pond at positioning in order to.

00:57:43: Think about the current situation for Gypsies really so it enables me to choose a number of archers and I've been looking out for a while and combined in a particular way

00:57:54: in order to think about a new way of presenting.

00:58:01: The Gypsy subjectivity really somehow.

00:58:09: Exactly as so something which I didn't.

00:58:14: Well too heavily upon the atrocities that have been afforded to us in the past something which is very important obviously and a lot of other people are dealing with

00:58:26: but I think that I didn't want to telephone that too much in this particular exhibition there are references to that office in the works but these are kind of.

00:58:36: Set alongside other possibilities for healing and moving forward within the same space so what.

00:58:45: It does trying to do I think is try to combine the actions of

00:58:49: remembering with the actions of the actions of imagining so this idea of recognising that but also imagining the construction of new Futures

00:59:00: I think that's a very healthy way too kind of trying.

00:59:06: No Ford and make sense of the situation because in some ways.

00:59:12: The past is Wayne heavily upon us but.

00:59:17: If we can look at new ways of making sense of that not denying any of it of course but maybe revisiting it and maybe thinking about it in the ways of the constructive for us then I think that.

00:59:30: That can be a positive experience and I think that from the reaction to the exhibition.

00:59:35: Awesome people were very moved by it of people felt very kind of you know elated when they came out so I think something was working

00:59:43: yeah I think this idea of a new future new possibilities imagination that something you and other Romany artists other activists and scholars intellectual be like to bring up the avant-garde Aurora

00:59:57: being at the forefront of something new and then pause

01:00:00: I was just wondering when you look it up from the intellectual aesthetic all of these things I just want to bring it back again to the community if if you can say anything about the reactions from different members of the community about the side different futures or how can how can we be leading into the future this the example of present of a potential future.

01:00:19: That's a good point the exhibition in Venice the opening was.

01:00:26: It's obviously exclusive thing so the opening was what it was

01:00:32: the other artists were all they're the ones that could be there with their day had a very positive experience about the exhibition not surprisingly I suppose in the run-in I think

01:00:44: October of 2019 arrange day

01:00:49: a large group of Roma from the outskirts of Venice to come to the exhibition and my report that I heard from that was that that that was very well received and that people can the exhibition possibly.

01:01:04: Mainly in terms of actually getting a trip to to The Gallery to see what was happening in a be an early I'm not sure but my you have to ask about this to get more details about

01:01:18: in terms of wider Communities and

01:01:21: you know how it's how those messages are kind of received I'm not sure I mean I think we can we can you know we can say I can do a lot of things under our can't do it

01:01:34: it can't be people that can't you know change political regimes but I think.

01:01:42: In the area that they can operate generally I think they can offer people some kind of my forward in terms of thinking.

01:01:52: That they are.

01:01:53: Others that are making these moves forward I mean I think it's a mistake to get too ambitious about how the art world or how are can affect change I think I can but I think it.

01:02:06: In a way it's more a reflection of the possibilities and what's occurring now then it is about actually.

01:02:12: Ok interesting Daniel I just am making a little bit of a side here because I really my my question was just too

01:02:21: I was wondering how other Romany people saw this and if they identified with the avant-garde and and you answer that quite well

01:02:28: and I felt a little bit like the weight of the world just dropped on your shoulder is because you're you're talking about and then you know that you can't solve all the problems with that your job to solve all the problems I'm sorry to make you think that what you do to to do something like that with you

01:02:43: just because I'm talking about the community doesn't mean that you need 2/7 start feeling guilty that you're an artist and you can't solve everyone's problems that's that's that's not the question I really wanna bring that back to you it's ok.

01:02:58: The question a bit more but that's a bit for me bill thank you for that and I think that.

01:03:06: People most gypsy people aren't interested the avant-garde I don't think about it.

01:03:11: Really I think it's you know it's it's it's.

01:03:18: Intellectual pursuit which is Which is valuable but.

01:03:23: I think that most people are struggling and they really need some help and I don't know how how far

01:03:30: my ideas help them with that and no I just think it might be like just another light of the future another model to follow or just an idea that like someone I can imagine a young person

01:03:43: I don't know what that word means what are the future and we have a future and we're really like people she looks us because we have the answer is inspiring and I was just wondering if someone

01:03:54: thank you for your answer but I was just wondering if someone might have been thinking that way and that's what I was getting out.

01:04:03: I hope so I hope so sometimes it's even easier it's just about disability it's just about we are visible.

01:04:12: Music.

01:04:19: I strongly believe in art as a tool of resistance and I mean there is an emerging contemporary money art seen in the last decade

01:04:29: do you think that Rama I can offer in Loughborough distance or.

01:04:34: Otherwise what what does it take for a money are to fully develop it's power dip we reach a critical mass.

01:04:42: I've always had an issue with the the concept of Rome are as such really because I'm not sure how useful the idea is

01:04:51: India general sense it certainly used for in terms of its uses as a kind of marketing tool for political activism and you know that that's great

01:05:03: that's fantastic I think most artist

01:05:07: what they were described as romart and obviously it's it can operate in that in that role but

01:05:15: most out of that I know what they are to operate on many levels and to pigeon hole in that way is problematic but you know obviously.

01:05:25: There's room for for for using.

01:05:29: Works of art by Roma to tip to put forward a certain argument and that reflects one of the many functions of art I think so.

01:05:39: I just think that because I want to move away from the idea of Rome are even though I think it's a very useful

01:05:44: it's a very useful categorisation for offshore curators and for theorist and for writers I think artists there isn't this idea so it's interesting.

01:05:54: Art is resistance because I think it is very.

01:05:58: Powerful tool of resistance Close I think as many as many sites that they can operate on I think we don't have a critical mass at the moment I think the working towards it there are many very good.

01:06:08: Artistic room origin we need more and.

01:06:13: What we need more than that actually is for our work to start to appear in national Museums and national narratives and in.

01:06:23: Contemporary art discourse more thoroughly than it does the moment really looked at the moment in a rather getaways manner I would say so that I think that's even though.

01:06:38: Visual Arts have been a huge step forward for Roman masturbation I think the political organisation needs to be much more efficient it is now I don't think anyway reach for potential at the moment so.

01:06:52: I think that's the most valuable thing for

01:06:56: functions for octave a form now is for works by Roma artists to be included in national collections and national narratives important museums and to be written about and it's completely ignoring me and I think

01:07:12: absolutely I mean right time to fight this fight because now and then in the frame of the black lives matter

01:07:20: movement also the museum start asking themselves so what about our collections what about them the presentation of marginalised groups in our collections black people women drama so maybe maybe something will changed and what do you describe those discussions

01:07:39: many romanii artists during the last years always this idea

01:07:45: what's beaver called the strategic essentialism so first develop this label of Roma art to then in a second Step.

01:07:54: Deconstruct again as soon as you have this visibility and have this political 5 done yeah but I know what you mean are there any upcoming projects you won't snooze to draw their attention to.

01:08:08: Did Isaac Blake at the moment customise company will be developing his gypsy make a project brca2 gypsy make a project into the next year there were a couple.

01:08:18: Credits am working at the moment I can't talk about that doesn't really help but

01:08:23: d show in Florence the Futurama showing is still on in Florence for another couple of weeks so if anyone is nearby they could take a look at

01:08:32: yep I think that that's as far as I can discuss that that's about it at the moment.

01:08:38: And another information for our listeners Daniel Baker has a website Daniel Baker dotnet and there you can see a lot of this lot of hard work so I'll have a look

01:08:51: is it a website you're definitely have Arisen as much as I do don't.

01:09:00: Yes I do we ask our guests to bring us one a virtual gift and.

01:09:08: We were having the guest for bringing up data an item or a non-material object that tells important biographical and a door represent.

01:09:18: For idea or guiding principles in the life of August 4th and what did you bring up

01:09:27: you a copy of the Futurama catalogue which is and we managed to

01:09:38: get some funding for a catalogue at beginning of this year obviously with a covered issues there was some delays and its production by the finally came out in September and so I have a copy of that for you but also because I can't give it to you now.

01:09:53: There's a virtual version which you can download from either from my website or from the area website

01:10:00: you can not hold it in your hand even actually read and look at the content so that's what I would like to to give

01:10:07: great thanks I'm looking for that thank you sorry this means that the this this exhibition was a very important moment for you.

01:10:17: Yes absolutely featuring exhibition with the combination of a number of things have been interested in for a long time the beginning of my PhD research

01:10:25: into gypsy Aesthetics focused on an exhibition that I created along with Ryan in 2006/2007 so gorgeous

01:10:38: logos with a play on the idea of the no travellers sign gorgeous being the Romany word for non gypsy person with a lot of the things that I'm dealing with the future Roma

01:10:50: this idea of combining.

01:10:52: Domestic I Tudor practice and combining that with a kind of contemporary Sensibility looking at works and biographies of the people and make them

01:11:03: Andover representative of the community so a lot of things that start

01:11:07: let's say 14 years ago I've been developing throughout my career and the future Roma so really I think

01:11:14: brings all of those together and allowed me to go further certainly in terms of Geographic scope of the exhibition and the Artists involved but also in terms of the ideas which I cannot boot up

01:11:26: in terms of inclusion and visibility and in terms of making a case for Gypsy presents to be felt within museums and National narratives in order to.

01:11:39: Community.

01:11:41: Music.

01:11:50: What role it plays for you to be to be Roma you said once in the past successful run what is appear from money society.

01:11:59: Today there's an elite with university degrees when cyst.on they were my identity is it still an exception when were manizo British nominees openly in proudly present.

01:12:13: Yes I think it is I did some work recently with new Buckinghamshire University.

01:12:19: They had a project which was about encouraging

01:12:24: gypsy Roma traveller students into higher education and strategies to make that happen I think it is still an issue yes I'm not sure if that's for the same kind of reasons that are Xperia when I was at school i e.

01:12:37: Not seeing yourself reflected back and therefore not identifying or decided that decided that Irish cases off for you

01:12:46: I think there are many things we still need to be

01:12:50: done to encourage people in the higher education but you know that said Irish case is not the only route to German forward I mean

01:12:59: anything that makes you happy and safe is perfectly viable and should be pursued so I think I certainly in the UK that's a although there are.

01:13:11: Small number of Gypsy women travellers who work in The Professionals who will.

01:13:17: Discuss their identity in those terms you still don't want to because.

01:13:24: Maybe the mix too high that they may come across discrimination in the workplace or within the Education environment

01:13:32: people still seem bigger risk-neutral and anything and coming from within the community of people being more open you think goods it's pretty much still the same.

01:13:41: Well you know there's still a lot of dry negative

01:13:44: media coverage of gypsies and in the UK always on the TV programme should never good program about gypsies you know it's always have anything rubbish stealing stuff so it's no surprise that people don't want to be associated with

01:13:59: and I will declined to be identified and his programs.

01:14:06: They call themselves documentaries investigative journalism they all entertainment programs there to titillate and letter to basically spread misinformation about gypsies and.

01:14:18: You know that California is still being commissioned by broadcasting companies then.

01:14:26: And it goes like to be on Challenge I mean when my Big Fat Gypsy Wedding came out there was lots vocal opposition to that in the community but it didn't really make much difference and the silicone

01:14:38: figures and advertising revenue means they just come out with the same old rubbish so I'm very optimistic.

01:14:47: I think things have changed on the ground that much ok I was wondering if you let me

01:14:52: since there's been a lot of Roman immigrated to the UK and whether that's had any influence on mixing of ideas within the community or

01:15:02: basically everything is still very separate and apart and in terms of.

01:15:11: Different gypsy Roma groups you know we are adjusting 100 on brella over kind of have an inclusive label Young

01:15:21: commonalities outweigh our differences certainly but there's a lot of new ones and difference between different promogroup so they're not as not as Siri harmony there

01:15:30: I would say that as much as you know when overwriting label as you need up that's a bit earlier.

01:15:38: Isabel I think it's great to be able to to have you know a label under which two to move forward and make the the steps politically but there

01:15:49: also needs to be an account of the difference within those Communities that is the same as feminism with within gay Rights you start with a

01:15:57: start with and then because you realise that there's no homogeneity.

01:16:07: I'm not aware of a great deal of of change on the ground hope I'm wrong but.

01:16:13: That's that's how I think I want to know what you see and what you hear.

01:16:20: How tradition survive because the community is so closed in a positive way it's working so well in the inside or because it's still marginalized as it's ok.

01:16:31: Protection strategy I think it probably makes you both I think we're still very marginalized as a group on the hall

01:16:39: within national territories but I think there's a very strong unifying sense of identity through cultural bonding activities common kind of.

01:16:50: Language that kind of thing I think it's ready a mixture

01:16:53: both as I said earlier the idea of discrimination still being very widespread in terms of Media I think that certainly

01:17:00: makes people can knuckle down and can I get on with things and not want to necessarily reveal part of themselves that they don't need to.

01:17:08: I think it's a combination of the two.

01:17:11: I think it's very important also in This podcast said to be do not stop emphasizing the heterogeneity of drama there's not one for money card for not 16 picture or picture of Brahma Sutra 1080i think a very very important

01:17:29: information.

01:17:31: Yeah exactly that's why we're talking to a number of different people to get a number of different experiences and hopefully young people within the various Romany Communities would like to listen and find out about the other

01:17:45: often that you get a chance to do.

01:17:48: Shall we play a little game or is sociation game didn't tell you before him

01:17:57: with an outreach sums terms and your answer very spontaneously without thinking with one word or just a beautiful sentence ok

01:18:08: gosh fascinating truth resistance.

01:18:15: Everywhere later life.

01:18:22: Set home.

01:18:31: For one life yesterday today tomorrow.

01:18:40: The day after brexit chaos.

01:18:50: Chaos Dino.

01:18:54: Do you know Romani or dino in continental European Romani.

01:19:03: Crusty baka baka.

01:19:12: Edward Knight.

01:19:18: Dino is the angloromani word for fool for foolish.

01:19:24: Is the central European version of the same word that can be foolish another way to say is meshugenah crazy you're stupid it's the diminutive of the word deal.

01:19:35: This is originally an adjective but can be used as a noun and in both cases even people who don't know reminder very well but often know this.

01:19:43: It's because lying in the dominant language in a number of regions is the word for luck it's the Central European version.

01:19:53: Is luck or happy.

01:19:56: Fact alone is the adjective needs happy or lucky.

01:20:04: Essentially and culturally significant word just as it's opposite is be back door be back door which means bad luck.

01:20:12: We wish you happiness and we often a boy talking about unlucky things in many Romana traditions.

01:20:19: Gojo is the angloromani word for a non romantic person in Central European Romani the word is God roll in its original sense if not pejorative.

01:20:28: Depending on context and turn the voice get deeper Jordan and people not familiar with the Romani language often presumed this negative meaning it is equivalent to gentile for non Jewish person.

01:20:40: Engine This podcast we talk about utopia and dreams of Roma for Europe and B12 present for my as role models as people we can we the majority Society can.

01:20:53: Crisis can become a starting point for inclusion for changes sometime so do you think this current crisis we are facing the Corona pandemic the climate change set

01:21:06: any such a starting point in Europe in.

01:21:10: Yes I think there's always the possibility of starting points and I think utopia is based on the premise of optimism really I'm in general the idea of Utopia to me suggest the unattainable so I kind of.

01:21:22: It's not something I spend my time thinking about that certainly if I think about it in terms of optimism and optimistic person so I always believe that things can be better.

01:21:32: This is interesting particular relation to the virus situation the moment I.

01:21:40: Remember us TV series I think about night 2014 it was in the UK we call utopia and it was about

01:21:49: conspiracy theory this organisation and developed a pathogen which they were about to release onto the population and the twist in this was 3:15 program.

01:22:03: Partly coloured light-hearted but this was that you found out towards the end

01:22:09: was that the only people that were immune to this pathogen with a Roma no it was good

01:22:19: utopia ok I'm looking at the reason that it struck me.

01:22:26: Was because when I washed in 2014 was because this included

01:22:34: wasn't signal to tour within the whole of the program or by any of the stuff around about the program I was watching it at home towards the end of the second series and suddenly this idea of this packaging being made in order for Roma.

01:22:49: It was about Recreation that's what it was about making people sterile the only thing I didn't make sterile

01:22:59: I'm not I'm not saying that's a fantastic idea what I'm saying is that what I found interesting was that it was

01:23:06: a narrative within which Roma what kind of located but it wasn't sensationalised it wasn't he wasn't signal that wasn't signposted it was kind.

01:23:17: A nice surprise to see Roman cooking something which is very well could you just which wasn't about all the.

01:23:24: Negative stuff about this is how really our lives be portrayed as.

01:23:39: Within the narrative of your other people's lives it's not about making a special about making a Sikh.

01:23:45: Number for interesting point there when you will be out of the crisis if there could be some kind of situation that arises were all it just happens to be there

01:23:56: the wrong I can do this or that and all the sudden it's just there is an aspect to to us that can be normalised that would be nice

01:24:05: wait to get out of get out of the the chaos with with that take it one step further and in what way what would be that one thing other than

01:24:17: not surviving a virus but maybe maybe something else if there is is there an ass.

01:24:21: That you could maybe imagine but brother in what way could run my serve as a model for a new way of understanding Europe or the UK of tomorrow.

01:24:31: Yes I think in terms of adaptability Rome I have a very adaptable

01:24:36: community and the way that very registrar have been seen to be failing over not just during the pandemic but the last.

01:24:46: Turn 15-years the weather Europe as.

01:24:50: Displayed a certain degree of inflexibility and all the countries involved in terms of a carnival lumbering by the way but I think there are certain structures within Europe that.

01:25:03: Fatal the Communities because of the inability to react and to adapt and to bring in contingencies that may be foreseeable certainly is very guilty of that in the UK so I think Roman adaptability

01:25:21: is certainly one of the many things that

01:25:23: could be used as a model but also the Romans sustainability and there's a living lightly on the land you know not not impacting too much on our surrounding you know very much in the past have been

01:25:35: vilified for the messing up areas of land at that we kind of settled upon

01:25:41: you know anything that the real damage the lad is being done by pollution and corporations that are not being held to account for the

01:25:49: and the damage to the caravan sites in France in the UK is not because of the Roman who are there but because the authorities don't allow access to water that they should be required to give by law and another issue was not the wrong with themselves so I really like that you're adaptability and sustainability those are both very

01:26:07: yeah very relevant traits for today and for the future and belong to us national solidarity am I romantic

01:26:16: or is there this transnational solidarity within the Roma community again I think.

01:26:23: The grassroots level I think it's more of a think it's more than aspiration for the for the big movers but.

01:26:31: Yes certainly intellectually decided transnationality is very important that on the ground

01:26:38: I'm not sure how that operates really certainly in terms of language and ideas a mobility or order restricting the ability of the people I think it's the idea of transnationality is more of a beer.

01:26:51: And an idea

01:26:52: can you open ideal absolutely which is very important as an idea but again I would bring us back to the idea of how this operates on the ground and

01:27:02: I think it's important for us to be aware that the high-flying idea that we have in terms about artworks and our intellectual conceptualisation

01:27:12: are important but.

01:27:16: We still need to be right concerned about what's happening on the ground.

01:27:24: Link to the end of the podcast what is your utopia Daniel what's your dream for Europe and and if you could have a Roma Tokyo for the UK or for Europe the world what would it look like.

01:27:38: It would a word would be a quality really in a quality

01:27:43: enough food enough utilities the people be able to carry on their lives in a comfortable manner that would be my idea of Utopia really it's I think that the core of any kind of

01:27:54: political movement political is is the striving for equality and I think that's that would underpin my idea of other YouTube

01:28:03: FY1 last game if you could ask one question on all radio TV and print media and Europe for one day what would questions

01:28:16: question that question would be.

01:28:24: Why aren't there any gypsies in your organisation.

01:28:31: Good one very very good last sentence for his very first episode of This podcast romatopia Rahman talk about the auto PS4.

01:28:42: Daniel thank you so much for being our guest it was so nice talking to you I mean we could continue 4 hours couldn't

01:28:50: I really appreciate your personal insights you or your opinions are you put it all together very nicely I think goodbye my pleasure thank you.

01:29:02: Thank you Daniel.

01:29:08: Romatopia by the federal Agency for Civic education and the council of Europe Roman travellers team idea and concept Isabel's.

01:29:17: Austin and evidence and bullying dealer and directed by Catherine sound design by constraining production 2020.